to be or not to be; are we close to a tipping point.

[mirtzapine]

I've always had a very lackadaisical, laissez-faire attitude towards life and so has DW, in the hope that by being laid back - life will be easy on either of us. But, its not the case any-more, I guess. Me and DW are in a pitiful state at the moment. Over the last nine years of marriage we had more shit thrown at us than any couple deserves. Some of our own making some not, in a nutshell, in alphabetical order and not attributed by who did what, we have gone though:
alcohol abuse
arrests
depression
adult onset diabetes
house foreclosure
job loss
minor infidelity (going out for drinks with a member of the opposite sex and keeping it hidden from the other)
nervous breakdown
serious debt problems
stage 3c cancer
suicide attempts
temper tantrums
violence
It's approximately a 50/50 split. Both of us are in the classic LTB situation. Yet we don't want to LTB... we are both working hard now at changing our bad behaviours, so that the DCs will grow up happy and healthy. Money and drink are our last problems to solve.

Thing is every conversation or chat or being together seems to be an argument, it feels like a big gray cloud over us. It's feels so difficult now because we are on the final leg of sorting this marathon of problems out. Fingers crossed by the end of this year we will be debt and drink free Well as free as any human being can be).

We've lost the ability to communicate to each other easily.

We're both at the "I love you but I'm not 'in love' with you" stage - the one thing we seem to be able to agree on is that we want to be back in love with one another and we want a nice family for the children. I still find DW physically attractive, judging by the way my body reacts to her bending over and flashing a bit of thong at me by accident or stripping down before bed and being naked is enormously arousing. DW says the same about me (well not the thong bit cos I'd look like Borat's fat Uncle Rashid). Funnily, our sex-life is the only thing that neither of us have any gripes about, but it does feel at times that its the only thing we now have in common.

DW feels that if I ask her a question, I'm initiating an argument. I feel that DW is hiding stuff from me, so I ask a question. We both agree that we don't want to be feeling like this. Somehow our language to one another is totally foobar - misunderstandings, misinterpretations, filling in the blanks with the wrong stuff. It feels like we're speaking in broken English.

I want to have a better relationship with DW but it feels to me that the only way forward is not speaking to each other about anything other than the weather - It feels like the only thing we can agree on.

Well! I feel like I've emptied my (or our collective) soul there, please don't ask who did what to whom. Or make a gender based assumption of the above list of strife. Or who is more in the wrong. I think we've evenly distributed the fuckuppery between us. We both work, we're both only children and both have no extended family.

I think there are some people who, although being averagely 'normal' and flawed individually, make absolutely crappy couples. You may not want to split up but life together, the way you describe it, sounds utterly miserable all round. Why put each other through it? If you're not going to speak to each other about anything but the weather, what is the actual point? A bit of sex?

I've always had a very lackadaisical, laissez-faire attitude towards life
Well none of the points on your list suggest the above is in any way true at all.
You think you do - but you obviously don't.
It's a lot to go through and you are still together and still trying.
That says something IMHO!
Have you tried counselling or mediation?
If not then I'd start there.
Either separately or together or both if at all possible.

Money and drink are our last problems to solve
Why??? These should be the first things to be tackled surely?
Alcohol and money issues will cause most of your list to just continue.
Get some help with the drinking and sort out your finances and things may start falling into place.

The really big red flag in your list though, is violence
Once violence has entered a relationship there really is no going back.
Hopefully it didn't involve either of you being violent towards each other, but if it did, give up now and separate.
You may find you are both very much happier apart than flogging what may well be a dead horse!

Improving communication will help even after seperating. Alot of people struggle with communication and the over familiarity of coupledom can get us into really bad habits. i found one exercise set as homework by a counsellor very useful - each partner takes it in turns to talk for 10 minutes about a neutral subject - eg my favourite holiday, my schooldays, what my hobby does for me etc etc and the other partner just listens - kids asleep, tv off, phones well away etc

it can sometimes reveal non-supportive listening (eg corrections, interjections, eye-rolling) or an inability to express or order thoughts clearly

It's only been the last two/three years where all of the above has occurred. Prior to that we were really good together, both had stellar careers, went on holiday and had a fabulous time both before and after the DC's. Its like we both have some kind of PTSD. Our goal is to clear up the mess and go back to being good together, our good/positive behaviours seemed to compliment one another. We have roughly agreed on a target that if the six months run up to our ten anniversary (mid 2014), is still this crap then we will separate amicability. Sadly though, the water may go under the bridge but it feels like there's a huge dam blocking it from dissipating into the ocean.

We are still intimate, I fancy her, she fancies me sometimes it can be a bit tough, once the endorphins have run though us, we feel better together. We're trying to have Saturday night dinner for two at home, once the DCs are in bed, candles, good meal - not too much drink and build upon that cos we can't afford to go out.

Actually, now I might try turning this on its head after the initial negativity that I wrote.
We've survived near terminal cancer and we supported each other though it.
We've survived House Loss and supported each other though it.
We've survived a nervous breakdown with suicide attempt and mental health issues and supported each other through it.
We are managing and getting through drink and debt problems and can now see a clear goal for the end of this year.
We both recognise our bad behaviours and are working hard to control them.

From my own perspective:
Am I proud of her for what she has achieved in her career over the last few years? Resoundingly yes.
Do I think she is intelligent, witty and fun to be with? Absolutely yes.
Does she care about the future of this family? Most definitely yes.

Actually, given the fact we agree on the disasters that have befallen us over the last few years, what the root causes were and that collectively we want to get back to the happy times together must mean that we are communicating effectively to one another. Jointly, we need to rebuild trust as we have both tit-for-tatted when either of us have fucked up. Some days it just feels so damn tough.

Well I think, with the glory of hindsight that if we'd been more on top of things and not lax or having a "let it be" attitude we wouldn't have fallen behind in the mortgage and lost the house, maybe recognised the signs much earlier and the NB wouldn't have been as bad as it was (self harm with cutting and burning happened, plus a wild swing that connected with a PC's face which ended up with an arrest and a desk caution). Got to the doctor's earlier and the cancer wouldn't have got to 3c.

By the time that was all over the rot had set in with drink and debt, which reached its zenith, during this summer. We're working very hard to get it all sorted out - but it's quite difficult

You should both congratulate your selves for getting over such big issues that have obviously affected your relationship.

If you havn't already may I suggest you tell your wife this;

"Am I proud of her for what she has achieved in her career over the last few years? Resoundingly yes.
Do I think she is intelligent, witty and fun to be with? Absolutely yes.
Does she care about the future of this family? Most definitely yes."

You both sound like you are getting things back on track and the only issue seems to be your ability to communicate 'nicley' with eachother about important things.
This is quite important in a relationship as I am sure you know, I don't wanna tell you how to suck eggs but it sounds like you need some help with this. If you both realise you are doing it maybe you can both work out a way of improving the communication.
You might want to consider help from an outside source, you must have already recieved some kind of outside help in the past considering the amount of things you are managing to fix. Don't be ashamed of asking.

FWIW, I think you both have something worth fighting for and you should 'big yourselves up' over it.

Well done, keep it up you two and I hope you continue to rekindle/find what you both once had

Have you had couples counselling, you have both been through so much, no wonder your relationship has suffered, many people wold have given up on each other before now so the fact you are both fighting on speaks volumes.

Is it you taking the ADs? is your DW getting help and support in tht department?

I hope you make it - you sound like a decent couple

You have a list of reasons you are proud of her - that is lovely to read, now how about one why you are proud of yourself?

Following that unhappy list two adults might reasonably say well, we gave it a shot, now let's split as amicably as we can for the children's sake.

You both want to make it work though, you are both sincere, so I really hope you can get through this.

I wouldn't dismiss sex as 'a bit of sex', I think unless couples are very matter of fact and detached about it this is still an intimate sign that you trust each other and there's hope. Touch and gentleness still go a long way where verbal contact is stilted or guarded.

Maybe start by telling DW over tea tonight one thing that made you laugh today, or moved you.

I have found it often helps to talk whilst not necessarily face to face, but while engaged in some chore, eg one of you driving, the other as passenger. That way although you might think it is too easy to plead distraction or lose focus, you don't feel you are eyeball to eyeball and it stays un-confrontational.

Thank you all for what you've said.
In no particular order:

You're right; I don't praise DW enough, trouble is she brings too much work home with her. We've swapped places after my illness, I dropped out of senior management and have gone back 10 years in my career. After DW's illness, she got a senior management position. Trouble is she uses me as a sounding board for work. So instead of going "good for you... well done... etc" I end up saying "do this, do that, shift them to x, adjust the project timelines"

One of the main issues that we both have is that, we have had no respite over the last few years. We went from one illness to another in quick succession and then back to work without taking stock of what had happened and worked frantically to try to get back to normality, except the drinking and the debts, were slowly and surely creeping up on us.

One of the things that we have truly lost is talking, it's more to and at rather than with. And of course, with all of the stressors we've had its very tense. So much so I bought these books yesterday... The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing and Stop Arguing, Start Talking: The 10 Point Plan for Couples in Conflict (Relate).

Before anyone jumps down my throat, It's because I want to stop the rot and ensure that our tense conversations, don't become the norm for us. Especially, as I've noticed that DC1, can be curt, stroppy and use bulling language to DC2 (children eh! often a mirror of their parents).

Another thing that is problematic to us, is the lack of friends, We both had illnesses, where people drop you like a hot potato, and now it's difficult to be able to make friends, because of time, money and the drink. Finding the time for R&R as a couple is equally tough. Having said that, we have a plan for tomorrow lunchtime... DW's going to work in lingerie and stockings, I'm going to dress up smart and we going to have bit of a saucy get together. Fingers cross some shitstorm doesn't erupt in the next 24hrs.

Finally, what can I be proud of? Well, a fortnight ago, I had this weird idea for a money management and planning app, cos I often see peoples eyes glaze over when they look at spreadsheets and statements and long lists of credit and debit. So over three day's I wrote the webapp so that easier for DW to visualise amount over time by in and out. I've lost a bit of steam over it but it will only take me a few more days to make it production worthy... then I'll do an Android and WP8 mobile apps (read to read up a bit on those). So thats some fun and exciting stuff to do.

Anyway, ta people for being kind, supportive and helpful. I do value the collective insights of mumsnet.

To me you sound like you might be classic candidates for some relationship counselling..? I haven't had a good experience with Relate, but I know others have, and there seem to be lots of decent private couples' counsellors about. Would that be worth a go?

Couples Counselling; Its on the nice to have list when we have the time and money.

An because of the money, we don't want to throw it away (we've built too many funeral pyres of cash - cos of debts)... 18 Months ago, I tried therapy - it wasn't cheap and it took some time and while it did make me talk about stuff all the therapist kept on saying was "well next time we'll discuss strategies"... it felt too much like "Jam Tomorrow". Until, I ran out of cash and couldn't go.