MIL - please help me get some perspective.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Right - this will be long but dint want to drip feed

I get on relatively well with MIL and FIL. MIL is quite selfish and FiL is very passive so facilitates that. They don't have many friends so family is, ostensibly, everything to them. However, it looks to me as though its more about show in that they won't ever rush to help us out practically but it's very important that we turn up for family events so that MIL can a have 50,000 photos to put on facebook. MILs needs always come first and I find her attitude quite bizarre - an example being that once FIL popped into see us and said that he wouldn't tell MIL as she would be cross. What? Rather than pleased he had seen us?

MIL was very controlling when DH was growing up. She has tried to interfere a bit with us but DH has, to be fair, been good at putting his foot down re this.

MIL has a complicated family background where her father died when she was young and her mother remarried. She had another child who is clearly the favourite - albeit he lives in London and MIL provides much more practical support. FIL's parents are pretty much sidelined and not offered any assistance

Now, to get to the point. It was MIL's brother's favourite child birthday recently and it was decided that we would all go to a hotel to celebrate. We have one DC aged 10 months and I am 7 month's pregnant.

one thing that pisses me off massively is that there is no communication regarding these events. So we have often been left hanging about/wondering whether to have lunch etc. DH is good now at just ensuring we do our own thing and eat etc. So we arrive, check in, have lunch etc. PIL's don't arrive til 4 so don't see DS as he's gone for a sleep. Obviously, if they had wanted to see him, they coukd have arrived earlier.

We go for the meal in the hotel which is very expensive and terrible. dH's and my main courses were £35 each and are taken off the bill as they are inedible. Favoured son, his wife and their 4 children all have meals that are fine. Favoured son orders lots of expensive wine. To be fair, DH has a few glasses. I have quarter of a glass and then two lemonades.

MIL is at her bossy worst but I manage to politely ignore here. This morning we come down for breakfast. There are two seats left beside a high chair that is obviously for DS. DH and I go to the seats to have MIL start chuntering something about DS's sister and her boyfriend needing to sit there. I tell her not to worry, we can get seats for them but we need to sit beside DS as there is no other room at the table in the fucking special room organised for breakfast

MIL then starts organising fir the waitress to take group photos RIGHT NOW and pointedly telling me to sit down now as I'm trying to get DS into the high chair. As we are quite flustered, we don't do the high chair strap properly our fault, I know and DS slips nearly out of the high chair and gets caught under the tray cringe. He is crying and I'm trying to get him out and sort things out and comfort him when MIL comes and starts pestering me about holding him and taking him for a walk as they've not seen him yet er, turn up earlier yesterday?. I say OK as he's just stopped crying. MIL then takes him off to have 5,000 photos taken. She's so busy doing this that she doesn't bother moving anything from her place and, as a result, DS pulls a cup of coffee over himself. Thankfully it was luke warm but my nerves are totally jangled by this point. She ignores all of this and FIL keeps snapping whilst DS grabs a knife. By this stage I actually feel like bursting into tears but I don't want to cause a scene.

I then stand up to take him back and MIL very pointedly refuses to hand him over to anyone but DH so he can hold him for the "next photograph". So we all trot off to have another family photo with MIL making sure that DH and his sister and she and DS are front and centre. I'm shoved at the back like a gestational carrier.

I'm fuming at MIL's complete lack of insight into danger and the fact that she must have known I was worried about DS but has refused to hand him over. Accidents happen. I know that and I am definitely not paranoid or over protective. I was happy for the favourite son's wife to take DS into another room fr about half an hour whilst we finished our lunch and think its good for him to go to everyone and have a little cuddle. But I do expect people to show a bit if common sense and put his safety above their need to take to photos. If an accident happens, I expect them to acknowledge it and that I might be a bit a bit worried about him - reasonably.

The PILs want us to go back to their house - about 10 miles away but I point blank refuse to DH and insist we go home. DH packs the car and I go to check out. The restaurant bill is huge. Query this and find out that MIL has called reception and said we will divide bill per room. Favourite son and his wife and 4 children are staying in 2 rooms so have paid far less per person and enjoyed the discount of our main meals being take off the bill. Favourite son is a millionaire, BTW. But MIL, the big cheese, has decided without asking us that we will subsidise them. As well as paying £350 no, that's not a typo for our room.

I am now very cross but pay up to save embarrassment. We are certainly not poverty struck but I have given up my job to be a stay at home mum and DH is about to buy a dental practice so money is pretty tight as we're having to pay a deposit etc.

I get DS into the car. By this stage, I do not want to see MIL. FIL then appears and starts chuntering in about MIL's 60th birthday next year - which is approximately 3 weeks after our baby is due. Apparently they would like us to trek 60 miles away, go out for a meal and stay the night. FIL helpfully suggests that I could stay in the hotel room with 13 month old DS and a 3 week old if I didn't feel up to the meal.

I then get into the car. I know I was rude here as I didn't say bye to everyone and I know that was rude.

DH appears and we zoom off. I tell DH understatement of the century that I am rather pissed off with MIL and do bit want her to look after DS on his own as she seems to have no regard for his safety and no insight into how to avoid accidents. She and FIL are meant to be looking after him fir the day in 3 weeks.

DH thinks this is harsh, blah, blah blah. He's never been scalded bybMIL. More by luck than design, I think. He agrees that the coffee thing was dangerous though and he did say to her to be careful at the time.

I don't know if I am over reacting here. Also, I don't know whether I should actually, once calmer, speak to her about all of this. I am massively pissed off. Maybe I didn't handle things well though. I don't know.

Sorry this is so long but can I have some advice!

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

MIL has a long history of falling out/permanent estrangements in her family. I don't - thankfully

I've calmed down slightly but I need to read the rest of the book. DH is saying that I shouldn't have texted agreed as that inflamed the situation. OK but he seems to be kind of lumping us together!

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Oh God - can I have a slap please. I've just had a huge barney with DH about this - despite all of your good advice.

He came home to advise that he had called his Dad and told him to tel MIL not to send aggresive texts tome again and he had told me not to text back

I got really cross because my point is that it was our decision not to respond to MIL. Not that I was champing at the bit too and had to be told not to by him. This led to a big row (instigated by me because actually I'm deflecting my MIL rage on him which isn't fair). I told him that basically MIL has to apologise and acknowledge our concerns before she can look after DS. DH then said - backed into a corner - that if I won't see his family, he won't see mine and that he feels caught in the middle and it's not fair that I'm putting it all on him to deal with.

I'm so cross as I have tried really hard not to argue with him re this as I don't want MIL to cause problems between us.

Also, per Attila's posts and the book, I know that he isn't suddenly going to turn round and say that yes, MIL is absolutely in the wrong as he loves her and he's used to her behaviour.

I feel really shit - I just can't work out why I can't feel calm and let this go. I felt better today and then later on I just feel total rage at the situation. I never want to see MIL again, but I'm going to have to put up with her and it's DS' birthday at the end if next month. We're having a little party for him and she's going to be there and it keeps making me cry because I feel so upset that I need to have her there but then shit and upset for DH and DS that there's all this bad feeling.

I actually feel quite worried that I feel so angry - I'm not like this and I can normally bite my tongue but I feel like I couldn't actually control myself (verbally) if I saw her and I really don't know how I'm going to be polite when I next see her and I do not want bad feeling at DS' birthday party.

I'm worried if this continues that it's actually going to cause problems with DH's relationship with my family.

[clam]

Saying that you can't spend time with your family if you won't with his, is just playground tit-for-tat. You have reasons for stopping contact with mil, and there are no such issues with your dm.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

clam - I think the issue now is that DH is now a few days have passed justifying and minimising what has happened

He's saying that MIL accepted on the phone to him the next day that she would need to be careful etc. however, that is not what she said to me in her text later that evening

I get the distinct impression that DH and FIL think this is just "girls being silly" and it will blow over - least said soonest mended type of thing. DH even said we were both on a "power trip" and he was caught in the middle.

The problem is that I'm raging and worried so I can't actually stand back and deal with this diplomatically with DH.

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

Good Lord. Your DH is of course still caught up in his mother's usual games and has little chance of extricating himself, especially when his own father is facilitating as well.

You're right, it wasn't helpful to have the righteous indignation row at him but FGS, how old is he that he decided that he would retaliate by refusing to see your family? That's just pathetic, as they haven't done anything to merit that at all, and it could be seen as emotional blackmail to force you to see his dysfunctional lot.

As for the whole "apologise and we'll let her look after DS" - have you not been listening? An apology from her isn't worth a bar of soap! If she can be brought to do it (unlikely), it will be lip-service at best - she still thinks you're an over-precious neurotic and is unlikely to change her mind on that, apology or no! As I said, I wouldn't let her have sole care of him at all until she has visibly demonstrated that she WOULD take appropriate care of him.

Saying that she managed fine to bring up her own DC is neither here nor there, as well. I've had first hand experience of the way MIL's forget how very small children need so much watching - because the last time they had their own children to care for, they were much older! (I do get on fine with my MIL, by the way, I'm not axe-grinding here)

As for your DH and FIL's patronising "girls being silly" attitude - well. I don't know how you deal with that. If your DH has started minimising the risks to your DS then he's the one being silly. There are many instances in life where "let's just see what happens" is appropriate - care of a baby isn't, IMO, worth the risk of that.

Sorry, I'm going on a bit - I'm so cross on your behalf! But also concerned that you are still considering allowing her to take care of DS!

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

Another thing - he has seen the text, hasn't he? So he does know she's saying one thing to him and another to you?

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

I've forwarded him the text. I don't know why I've got caught up in the apology thing. I think it's because I don't want her anywhere near us so it's a way to try and facilitate that happening - as she won't apologise

What is really worrying me is that DH is saying, oh similar things have happened before with your parents. That is totally'and completely untrue. I've asked DH to give examples of this and he can't, of course. But continues to assert that this is true.

So, now, I feel forced to let them look after DS as DH and I do not have a united front on this. So, if I refuse to let them, then DH is obviously going to have a serious problem with that.

And I really don't know how I'm going to be civil to MIL

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

The problem is that we can't actually talk about this rationally as DH seems to be in total denial

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

AGH!! You can't play Russian roulette with your DS's safety, SURELY your DH can understand that? He's really been wound up by his father hasn't he. They've got him good and proper - undermined any support he might have felt for you by telling him how silly you are, so he would look silly as well if he supported you.

Just find excuses if he won't back you up. Tell him you've already rearranged the care.

I'll tell again the story of how my DH went against my cautionary wishes and nearly allowed DS1 to drown, as well as his own mother. I said I wasn't happy about Ds1 going swimming in the lake as he couldn't swim at all, wasn't happy in the water (i.e. would panic if he went under), and it's a LAKE so has very uneven bottom, waves, sea urchins, razor clams etc. etc.
I was told I was silly, paranoid, MIL had brought 2 boys up and they hadn't died, blah blah blah.
So they were all over there without me, DH fishing off the jetty, MIL decides to take DS1 into the lake. She, of course, loses her footing and goes under - she's holding DS up so he's not under but she can't regain her footing without letting go of him, so if it had gone on much longer she would have drowned and so would he. DH stops baiting his hook, looks around and sees that they're in trouble, flings himself and the fishing rod into the lake as he jumps in to save them both.

He didn't tell me this. I overheard him explaining to his boss why he needed a new blackberry. I was so angry I couldn't even breathe, let alone shout. Guess what though - MIL hasn't taken Ds1 swimming in the lake again, without a floatation jacket on. Remember too - I actually get on pretty well with my MIL, they just thought I was being over-cautious. Nope.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

What Thumbfuckerwitch wrote earlier in her posts.

These people do not apologise EVER nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Note all the texts; the woman cannot even be asked to call you directly. That also shows how little she thinks of you. You're the afterthought and not regarded as one of their family.

Do not have them look after your DS in any shape or form!!!!. If you were to continue to do this, that decision could well come back to haunt you.

These people simply do not make for being good grandparents.

I would have nothing more to do with his mother; if he wants to see her then he can go himself. His tit for tat re your family is just that; he has not got a leg to stand on really. And he is very much in FOG re his dysfunctional mother. After all she has caused all this to arise in the first place due to her innate desires to put herself first and foremost in everything no matter at what cost to others.

Gobbo unfortunately (understatement) you are dealing with a narcissistic MIL; her behaviours are highly indicative of narcissism and if she is indeed a narcissist (btw you will have to make a judgment call on that as such people are rarely if ever clinically assessed) it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with her (and by turn her enabler of a H).

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Gobbothewitchescat,

I have posted a link below that may help:-

//ww.lightshouse.org/all-about-narcissists.html#axzz2jHUMVWF2

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

www.lightshouse.org/all-about-narcissists.html#axzz2jHUMVWF2

Should be this one, ignore the other.

[tobiasfunke]

What thumbfucker witch said.
She won't apologise because she sees nothing to apologise for.
I do think you need to try and let this go because you are working yourself up into a state about it. I know I've done the same and usually because my DH just minimizes the problem. You need to forget about her for the moment if you can. Ignore the drama.

[woollytights]

The title of your thread asks for perspective, and although this isn't what you want to hear, I'm going to try and give you that.

I think you have had some pretty awful advice on this thread. A lot of presumptions have been made about your MIL and you've been pushed towards taking the most extreme possible action and cutting her out of your life, and encouraging your DH to do the same. I would fully support anyone cutting off a family member if it became impossible to sustain a healthy relationship with them. However, I think in this instance, you just find her very annoying.

I agree with the poster who you dismissed earlier on, who said that it's clear from the way you describe her that you just don't like her. In terms of things she has actually done wrong factually, these include not handing you your son back when you asked, however handing him to her son who presumably you were happy to have him. Taking responsibility for arranging the seating in a way you didn't like, which you objected to and did your own thing. Deciding the bill would be split without consulting you, a decision she seemed to be put on the spot to make and nobody else was around. She has since but this right by forwarding you a cheque I understand. And holding your son whilst he picked up the knife and spilt the cold tea, by anyone's admission, an accident.

I realise you feel inclined to go with the majority decision, however I strongly urge you to reconsider your approach and see the situation for what it is. I totally get that she's irritating and does your head in. But from what you've explained to us, which is pretty damning, I am still not somehow getting this same picture as everyone else of a nasty narc cow who needs to be centre of attention and loves playing mind games with her family.

My suggestion is to ask yourself what you think she should have legitimately done since the event to put this right. You have complained she texted you rather than your DH which actually strikes me as the fairer approach, yes the problem is with you, since you are the person who has become offended and upset. You have complained that when confronted about the money she sent your share back to you. You have complained that she didn't ask how your son was when you told her he had a cold - you'd already said, he had a cold...

By all means live your own life and make your own choices regarding babysitting, which birthday celebrations you attend etc. I am sorry to say though she sounds pretty harmless really and I think trying to encourage your DH to cut her off will be unsuccessful if not a really terrible mistake.

[Holdthepage]

OP when you started this thread you asked for some perspective, you actually said you got on ok with your in laws. A disappointing weekend and some thoughtless behaviour on your MIL's part have now turned into WW3. You are openly trying to stop all contact with her over a spilt cup of lukewarm coffee that did not cause any harm to your child.

Your DH is now defending his parents and the whole thing is escalating beyond belief. The amateur psychologists are out in force applying labels to people they have never met. Before long your DH will be diagnosed as EA & you will be being urged to leave him. Listen to your own DM who has asked you to try and get along with your MIL.

If it had been your mother that had spilt the coffee would you have reacted in the same way?

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

OPs DM's advice would work if OP was actually dealing with someone who was emotionally reasonable to start with; MIL is clearly not and has also managed to isolate her own self from other family members.

This is at heart about power and control.

I do not have to actually see a person to work out whether they are behaving reasonably or not; if the initial post was read properly you would see that MIL has been front and centre throughout that gathering and made it all really about her. She created the drama and feeds off it.
It is very difficult for people who thankfully are not on the receiving end of such behaviour to perhaps dismiss it as a mere spat which will blow over in time. It will not, besides which MIL has not apologised for her actions nor taken any responsibility for same.

[woollytights]

Holdthepage you are absolutely spot on.

OP, if you decide to try and turn this around and have a go at getting it sorted out between you all, I'm certain that things will be much, much better for you going forward. You are surrounded by a loving family with good intentions, embrace it. Myself personally, and others I'm sure, will offer advice and support to do so if you want it.

[perfectstorm]

I do not have to actually see a person to work out whether they are behaving reasonably or not

Sorry, but no mental health professional of any real experience or training would dream of saying that. In fact in the absence of abuse no decent professional would be telling someone they treat what to do at all. What makes you better equipped to counsel than a chartered psychologist, for example?

This MIL sounds a complete pain, no question. But I hesitate to label an immature PITA as toxic. I do know rather too many toxic people, and being annoying is not their primary fault. I'm not opposed to going NC where justified, and have in fact implemented that with some of my own relatives, but IMO it should take a higher threshold than the situation described here. It should be a last resort, not a go-to solution, where close relatives are concerned.

In the OP's shoes I'd reduce contact between herself and MIL as the latter sounds self-absorbed and high-handed, and in late pregnancy and with a baby nobody needs the stress OP is describing. But let DH handle contact between the kids and gm for now. Longer-term, I think setting clear boundaries and keeping to them is a wiser route than creating a huge family rift, and I would suggest the OP talks all this through with her mum, who is loving and supportive and does actually know all the players personally.

I think the OP has grounds to be very upset, and her DH needs to step up more. But I also think suggesting this gc be removed from her gc's lives is drastic overkill on the evidence provided here. It's a hammer for a nut.

[perfectstorm]

I agree, thepaintedladies.

[EldritchCleavage]

I don't think you need to go completely no contact with your MIL. But I do think you need to give yourself permission to be assertive, and frank, in the moment, with her, FIL and anyone else. Not afterwards, with your DH.

I am not advocating rudeness, by any means. But once you have freed yourself to say 'No', firmly and politely, whether about your DS, photos, restaurant bills and anything else, I wonder if you would find that the MIL problem receded significantly. The key is not to allow yourself to be put upon and then brood, but to decide not to be put upon in the first place, with a shrug if MIL doesn't like it, picking your battles so the petty stuff goes by and the stuff you can't live with is dealt with immediately it arises (whatever the gathering).

Doing this would also mean you would have to put up with a certain amount of lip-pursing, because generally younger women have the least status in extended families and are expected to toe any number of lines. But as long as you are polite and reasonably friendly, the chances are people will adjust to the fact you can't be corralled into stuff you don't want to do.

My late MIL (who was, in a reversal of the usual situation, nice to me and mean to DH) had both silently summed each other up. We both knew we were capable of serious arseyness, and mutually decided not to let it come to that. If your MIL senses you won't take any shit but provided she doesn't give you any, relations will be civilised, she may just stop being so overbearing. No guarantees, but it must be worth a try.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It is clear to me that this MIL has acted completely unreasonably from the very beginning. I can only go by what the OP has posted but don't have to actually see this MIL in action to work that out; MILs actions in her initial post are pushy and assertive at the very least.

You would not tolerate any of this from a friend, why should family members be treated any differently?.

Setting boundaries certainly needs to be done and these should be a lot higher than they are currently. I feel very sorry for the OP for being placed in such a position in the first place but her MIL put her there by her actions. OP needs to be with family members who benefit her family, not those who want to be front and centre all the time and who make it all about them.

[youretoastmildred]

AttilatheMeercat, I can see that the MIL in this OP was unreasonable and annoying. I am curious - having read many of your posts over the years - about exactly when an annoying person becomes a toxic person. And how one can be so sure.

I am also curious about when inconsiderate or thoughtless or selfish becomes EA.

Because - surely we are all in various relationships with people who are a bit of all of these. But they aren't all toxic.

One of the things I think is very dangerous (this is a totally non-expert opinion but my position from experience) is that for me, intention is not a necessary condition for a person to be intolerably abusive. But we often see this on here "Oh yes, he knows he is doing it, it is a deliberate modus operandi".

• but I have been in an EA relationship which destroyed my confidence and I am sure that the man did not remotely see things in those terms - was not doing it deliberately - was an extremely fucked up individual who is his own terms was fighting for a sort of survival, through control and domination and belittlement;

But if the person does not know they are doing it where do you draw the line, because we all behave badly sometimes?

And how can you know on the internet?