MIL - please help me get some perspective.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Right - this will be long but dint want to drip feed

I get on relatively well with MIL and FIL. MIL is quite selfish and FiL is very passive so facilitates that. They don't have many friends so family is, ostensibly, everything to them. However, it looks to me as though its more about show in that they won't ever rush to help us out practically but it's very important that we turn up for family events so that MIL can a have 50,000 photos to put on facebook. MILs needs always come first and I find her attitude quite bizarre - an example being that once FIL popped into see us and said that he wouldn't tell MIL as she would be cross. What? Rather than pleased he had seen us?

MIL was very controlling when DH was growing up. She has tried to interfere a bit with us but DH has, to be fair, been good at putting his foot down re this.

MIL has a complicated family background where her father died when she was young and her mother remarried. She had another child who is clearly the favourite - albeit he lives in London and MIL provides much more practical support. FIL's parents are pretty much sidelined and not offered any assistance

Now, to get to the point. It was MIL's brother's favourite child birthday recently and it was decided that we would all go to a hotel to celebrate. We have one DC aged 10 months and I am 7 month's pregnant.

one thing that pisses me off massively is that there is no communication regarding these events. So we have often been left hanging about/wondering whether to have lunch etc. DH is good now at just ensuring we do our own thing and eat etc. So we arrive, check in, have lunch etc. PIL's don't arrive til 4 so don't see DS as he's gone for a sleep. Obviously, if they had wanted to see him, they coukd have arrived earlier.

We go for the meal in the hotel which is very expensive and terrible. dH's and my main courses were £35 each and are taken off the bill as they are inedible. Favoured son, his wife and their 4 children all have meals that are fine. Favoured son orders lots of expensive wine. To be fair, DH has a few glasses. I have quarter of a glass and then two lemonades.

MIL is at her bossy worst but I manage to politely ignore here. This morning we come down for breakfast. There are two seats left beside a high chair that is obviously for DS. DH and I go to the seats to have MIL start chuntering something about DS's sister and her boyfriend needing to sit there. I tell her not to worry, we can get seats for them but we need to sit beside DS as there is no other room at the table in the fucking special room organised for breakfast

MIL then starts organising fir the waitress to take group photos RIGHT NOW and pointedly telling me to sit down now as I'm trying to get DS into the high chair. As we are quite flustered, we don't do the high chair strap properly our fault, I know and DS slips nearly out of the high chair and gets caught under the tray cringe. He is crying and I'm trying to get him out and sort things out and comfort him when MIL comes and starts pestering me about holding him and taking him for a walk as they've not seen him yet er, turn up earlier yesterday?. I say OK as he's just stopped crying. MIL then takes him off to have 5,000 photos taken. She's so busy doing this that she doesn't bother moving anything from her place and, as a result, DS pulls a cup of coffee over himself. Thankfully it was luke warm but my nerves are totally jangled by this point. She ignores all of this and FIL keeps snapping whilst DS grabs a knife. By this stage I actually feel like bursting into tears but I don't want to cause a scene.

I then stand up to take him back and MIL very pointedly refuses to hand him over to anyone but DH so he can hold him for the "next photograph". So we all trot off to have another family photo with MIL making sure that DH and his sister and she and DS are front and centre. I'm shoved at the back like a gestational carrier.

I'm fuming at MIL's complete lack of insight into danger and the fact that she must have known I was worried about DS but has refused to hand him over. Accidents happen. I know that and I am definitely not paranoid or over protective. I was happy for the favourite son's wife to take DS into another room fr about half an hour whilst we finished our lunch and think its good for him to go to everyone and have a little cuddle. But I do expect people to show a bit if common sense and put his safety above their need to take to photos. If an accident happens, I expect them to acknowledge it and that I might be a bit a bit worried about him - reasonably.

The PILs want us to go back to their house - about 10 miles away but I point blank refuse to DH and insist we go home. DH packs the car and I go to check out. The restaurant bill is huge. Query this and find out that MIL has called reception and said we will divide bill per room. Favourite son and his wife and 4 children are staying in 2 rooms so have paid far less per person and enjoyed the discount of our main meals being take off the bill. Favourite son is a millionaire, BTW. But MIL, the big cheese, has decided without asking us that we will subsidise them. As well as paying £350 no, that's not a typo for our room.

I am now very cross but pay up to save embarrassment. We are certainly not poverty struck but I have given up my job to be a stay at home mum and DH is about to buy a dental practice so money is pretty tight as we're having to pay a deposit etc.

I get DS into the car. By this stage, I do not want to see MIL. FIL then appears and starts chuntering in about MIL's 60th birthday next year - which is approximately 3 weeks after our baby is due. Apparently they would like us to trek 60 miles away, go out for a meal and stay the night. FIL helpfully suggests that I could stay in the hotel room with 13 month old DS and a 3 week old if I didn't feel up to the meal.

I then get into the car. I know I was rude here as I didn't say bye to everyone and I know that was rude.

DH appears and we zoom off. I tell DH understatement of the century that I am rather pissed off with MIL and do bit want her to look after DS on his own as she seems to have no regard for his safety and no insight into how to avoid accidents. She and FIL are meant to be looking after him fir the day in 3 weeks.

DH thinks this is harsh, blah, blah blah. He's never been scalded bybMIL. More by luck than design, I think. He agrees that the coffee thing was dangerous though and he did say to her to be careful at the time.

I don't know if I am over reacting here. Also, I don't know whether I should actually, once calmer, speak to her about all of this. I am massively pissed off. Maybe I didn't handle things well though. I don't know.

Sorry this is so long but can I have some advice!

[brass]

you've just described my MIL's relationship with her mother and her attitude towards me.

DH has never undermined me in front of them [thank god!!!]

Behind the scenes he has had moments of doubt and as Attila often says about FOG he has been brought up to believe that her behaviour is normal.

However 18 years is an awfully long time and he has seen my constant relationship with my family and female friends so can and does acknowledge that they are indeed odd. I have never demanded he do anything as I believe in standing up for myself. I have more recently said that I have reached my tolerance threshold and want nothing more to do with them. He has not challenged this, supporting my position by distancing them, not inviting them into the house when they've turned up on the doorstep etc. He is struggling with it though and this recent death is obviously difficult.

The pain comes from having to come to terms with the fact that his mother cannot (for the sake of her relationship with him) make an effort with his wife and children. She is so intent on her path that he is collateral damage. The person she is hurting most is him.

[brass]

I should add DH is no pushover, he will quite happily tackle her especially when it comes to the DC. He is quite stubborn and belligerent in his own right!

I have never cowered to her though, always politely but very firmly standing my ground. It is this that she hates so much in me. She once said 'you're very confident aren't you?'

er yes got a problem with that? To my credit I've never raised my voice to her, sworn or done anything else she could use against me.

[tobiasfunke]

MY DH is useless. He has spent 40 odd years basically trying not to engage with them, so he just switches off and lets their madness wash over him. However that means he is basically incapable of dealing with them now and has left me at their mercy. The net result is that I took most of the crap.
I hate to admit but he was right from the beginning. He always said ignore them because they are insane and nothing you can say or do will make them act like normal people it's a waste of breath. It's a bit difficult when they are not your parents but it is doable. My mantra became "Your mother's upsetting me. You deal with her". Turns out he got slightly more pissed off when I removed myself as the buffer between him and his parents.
The one thing not to do, and what I stupidly did for many years, was to turn myself into a martyr dealing with them and then moaning to DH. All he heard was me moaning and got pissed off with me.

They are his parents -making him deal with them on all fronts is your best bet. You have an excuse because you are busy being pregnant and then you will have a new baby.

[oscarwilde]

My MIL is great in some ways but the BIL issue drives me into orbit. I trust her completely with my children's safety even if I don't always agree with her methods.
Brass's advice "never raise my voice etc, *or done anything else she could use against me" is great. Politely stand your ground and then have some fun being all smiley and happy when she clearly has the hump with you. Doesn't work on everyone but it certainly does on my MIL who clearly doesn't like confrontation either, moody bat !

[gamerchick]

Man you're all so much more patient and considerate than I am. After a decent chunk of time putting up with the ex in laws I eventually screamed FFFFFUUUUUCCCKKKKKKK OOOOOFFFFFF down the phone and didn't speak to any of them again.

Worked pretty good.

I'm obviously not suggesting that mind.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

I would love to scream "fuck off" at MIL and never see her again

I am trying to remain calm but keep having flashes of white hot rage.

Right, I think loan of action is:

1. Speak to DH

1. Ask him to deal with MIL from now on

1. Ignore any texts etc from MIL. Do not react. The only thing that is annoying me slightly re that is she will no doubt feel she's has had the last word re what happened.

[tobiasfunke]

She will always have the last word and turn everything you say into the words of a mad hormonal DIL. Narcissists thrive on the drama. Ignoring them and feigning apathy pisses them off way more.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Absolutely tobiasfunke.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

This you may also find helpful Gobbolinothewitchescat,

In the simplest of terms, there’s nothing toxic people like more than:

1. Getting their way, or;
2. Causing a fight.

Toxic people like to accuse, tantrum, manipulate and smear their way to either one of the above or the other. Their out-of-control emotions and self-centeredness make the blame game and the smear campaign two of their favorite tactics for keeping you engaged with them so they can feed off you.

Upset a toxic person, and they’ll be shooting infuriating drama-baits your way and just waiting for you to bite the hook. And they know just what to say to keep you tossing and turning at night, just trying to think of some way – any way – that you can stop them once and for all and make sure the truth about who you are prevails. But if you’re wise, you won’t bother.

Because the only way to win with a toxic person is not to play.

And until you accept that fact, you’re anybody’s sucker. All it will take is one bloated accusation, one lie, or one insinuation about you, and you’ll forever be the toxic person’s most treasured source of satisfying fun and games. If you don’t know how to leave the bait alone and find another, quieter, more indirect route back toward being left alone, you never will be.

Abusive people know that as long as they can set and keep their hooks in you, you are stuck being there for them to use and abuse – to feed on. When they want to, abusive people will say and do whatever it takes to keep you glued painfully to them and their world, because if you are stuck to them, they will always have you handy for whatever emotionally abusive purpose they want.

You may need to cut contact altogether if you are in an entrenched personal relationship, and if so, you may get hoovered and manipulated into staying connected. This is often easily done by deliberately upsetting you so much that the urge to call or contact them just to have your say will be intense, because the lies or other distortions being propagated are so hurtful. Don’t fall for it. Just ignore the whole thing, walk away and wipe your hands. There is no winning such battles. The greatest reward is freedom from the toxicity, which only comes with your non-involvement.

Of course, if there is a legal matter or similar to attend to, by all means, defend yourself appropriately. Non-communication isn’t the same thing as being a legal or occupational doormat. However, responding personally to the drama baits and the manipulations designed to tempt you into fighting back is a reward for toxic people, so wherever logistically possible, let the lies, accusations or other nastiness go completely unresponded to.

The sooner you do, the sooner it will start to become quiet, which, given certain toxic types, can take long enough without additional delays being thrown in. Don’t tell yourself you have to reply — learn to recognize your refusal to respond for what it really is — a sign that it will be over as quickly as possible because you knew how to ignore drama-baiting and send the toxic person looking for a better target.

So when you find yourself invited into an ugly tug-of-war with a toxic person, simply drop the rope immediately, walk away and LEAVE IT BE FOREVER. Because the simple fact of the matter is, toxic people can’t have a tug-of-war with you if there’s nobody holding on at the other end.


More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/why-its-smart-to-let-toxic-people-have-the-last-word#ixzz2j8O7sGwN

[ilovemyelectricblanket]

I went though this 3 years ago Christmas day.

I wont bore you with all the details (it is on here somewhere as I too came to Mumsnet for support) but my MIL IS narcissistic and my husband was totally institutionalised into seeing it as normal.

OP. I know that feeling of white hot dizzy sickness when faced again the gut wrenching shock of an attack from MIL.

She wont stop unless you detach yourself from the game.

You wont win this one or any others. And if you do win (you wont) but (if you did get apology or even at least a sense of her understanding her appalling behaviour) then you will still loose because it will cost you dearly.

OP my breast milk dried up from all the stress she put me under and I wasn't able to breast feed my baby. Im still coming to terms with that one...

3 years later - I still do not have an apology. I haven't seen them since.

Both my husband and I have needed counselling to find ways of coping as DH not able to cope with not facilitating MIL insane abusive behaviour.

I may not have seen them in 3 years but metaphorically they have been in our home, our bedroom, everywhere. The elephant in the room. The constant pressure to conform and the agony of watching my husband know that he cant put us (me and DCs) at risk like that again but he being estranged from all of his family hurts like hell.

Of course. MIL is the victim. Its SPECTACULAR how they twist the truth and isolate the victim.

For a while - my marriage was on the rocks.

The pressure on me to let her have her way and continue to abuse me and our DCs was immense.

Somehow - I have managed to stay strong and our marriage is back on track.

If I could do it all again - I would distance myself massively from inlaws.
I would only do what I was prepared to do. Never never stay in their house or in hotels. A cool distance that keeps them happy and keeps you and your family safe. Play the game but play it safely.

Im so sorry you are going through this. I would love to help. Do not text her again.

[ilovemyelectricblanket]

isolate the 'real' victim.

[brass]

the death of the relative obv brings home the enormity of what No Contact means. I have said to DH he needs to figure out what kind of contact for HIM will make life ok for the long term but that the DC and I will not be involved with them again and do not want anything about our lives divulged as she feeds off this like a locust.

the fact that she wrote the letter 2 days after the relative died just goes to show how fixated she is with trying to get a reaction. It makes it all the easier to ignore her.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Firstly - I just want bit say thank you to all of you for the really n fantastic advice you've give me. This is really MN at its best soppy emotion

Attila - your last post has really helped me tonight. I've been struggling with really wanting to text back but I am not going too electricblanket - you've described so well how I feel. V sorry to hear about your situation. [Sad]

I've spoken to DH tonight. It went pretty well although he did say that he told me not to text! Although we agreed on the text wording together

I've said to him that I'm not arguing about this. That MIL's behaviour is unacceptable and I am not responding to anymore texts or emails from her. I've also said that he needs to deal with her and I'm leaving it up to him how and when he does it. I've alluded to the November issue and said that needs to be discussed too. Finally, I said that I am not falling into the family dynamic of being bullied bybMIL just because her mother does that to her.

Going forward, I intend to basically manoeuvre MIL out by deeds not words. I won't let her visit after the new baby is born until I feel up to it. She is not coming to the hospital if I'm there as just don't feel,comfortable having her round when I'm so vulnerable. Thereafter, there will just never be a situation where the PIL's look after thevDCs. I will always make sure there are other baby sitters. I was planing to ask the PIL's if they wanted to go away with us next year. Won't be doing that now.

Essentially MIL will get the bare minimum now in terms of visits etc and no contact from me re DCs' progress - so no more photos etc. . I won't be facilitating or arranging anything for their benefit - will leave all of that up to DH

Without sounding too much like I'm about to let out a Witch's cackle, MIL has essentially played right into my hands by sending that horrible text as I now have the perfect excuse to avoid her as much as possible

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

Just make sure you stick to it, Gobbolino! I am so glad your DH is on your "side" over it all though.

You were going to invite them on holiday with you??? What WERE you thinking??!!

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

thumb - I know

We go away with my parents so I was just trying to be fair.

Quick question - I feel more confident and less upset now that I have a plan. What do I do if MIL suddenly says she wants to discuss things? How can I refuse without looking unreasonable.

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

Hand it over to DH. You're 7m pg and don't need the BP rise - DH can tell her that you're not too well and don't need ANY stress. :)
But she won't - and even if she suggests that, then all it will be is an excuse to berate you.

[Cherriesarered]

After years of trying I have disengaged with my MIL. It is better all around. A polite visit where I avoid her as much as possible so that she can see the children is fine twice a year is sufficient. It's very sad and no doubt sounds harsh but I am only posting this because the OP's MIL sounds very similar and I have had years of these situations. The children are only important as things to photograph and show off about not as little people to be loved or looked after safely. As soon as the show is over, they get ignored.

[TempusFuckit]

What a horrible thread. Talking about how you've outmanoeuvred your MIL, she's playing into your hands etc etc. And all the Internet diagnosis of toxic personalities on the basis of a few forum posts is laughable.

OP, she shouldn't have let your DS grab the coffee, and the bill splitting was unfair in hindsight. Neither was intentionally nasty, just thoughtless. You were, as you yourself admit, actually rude. I'd also like to know why you hadn't paid your fair share of the bill for the meal - discounted main courses notwithstanding - at the time.

Your own DM is right - do your best to preserve the relationship. Be more assertive about things which matter to you. Let things which don't slide. Politely refuse the 60th birthday and explain why. Don't turn this into WWIII.

[Thumbfuckerwitch]

Ah just ignore the downplayers, Gobbolino (SEE, Yellow? Told you, din't I?

Tempus I expect the meal in the hotel restaurant was added to the hotel bill - not that uncommon, tbh.

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Yes - it was added to the bill. Perhaps I should have been there counting out our share in 1ps to pay immediately.

Anyway, I think I'll go with majority rules on this one. Thanks for the input though

[Gobbolinothewitchscat]

Oh - and any rudeness by me has been more than superseded by her text. Really.

[TempusFuckit]

Meh - I don't think a defensive text "supersedes" storming off in a huff and then accusing her over the coffee. You clearly can't stand her, that's plain from the way you describe her in the OP. And anyway, it's not a competition to see who can be the most rude.

Surely the priority should be resolving things? Your MIL is now doing this with the cheque - meanwhile you are cackling with glee at the prospect of manipulating her out of your family's life.

As for going with the majority, that's entirely up to you. But bear in mind that MILs are almost always demonised on MN - and usually diagnosed as either toxic or narc too, those being seemingly the only two options for MN armchair psychologists.

For what it's worth, my vaguely annoying MIL put a freshly made cup of tea within my DS's reach and he pulled it right over him, leading to several hours in A&E. After the initial shock, I put it down to forgetting what one-year-olds are like. I didn't try to cut her out. Two years on and my DS and his baby sister adore her.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

I have seen many examples of decent and kind MILs on MN: they are not all demonised by any means.

It does not really matter whether they are inlaws or not; people who are prickly and or difficult are this way inclined anyway regardless of how old they are. On the subject of my own awful inlaws (I am very much the afterthought in that family) it is not my fault they are the way they are.

[brass]

I haven't demonised my MIL. She is a very damaged individual who thrives on disharmony. She can create problems out of nothing and leave you feeling like you're stuck in a revolving door.

There is no reasoning, no common sense, no pragmatism, no sense of right or wrong and most importantly no trust.

Threads like this can help inform why someone constantly leaves you feeling a certain way. Sometimes it's difficult to articulate (even after 18 years.)