This isn't me - but can an abusive man be rehabilitated

[mirtzapine]

Here's the story: I have a mate who is (I believe from reading around) abusive to his partner. Towards me he tries to intimidate and bully (real in your face stuff as in centimetres from my nose), but I stand up to that and just go don't you dare talk to me like that.

His partner J, is lovely, a gentle, kind person. When my wife went through Breast Cancer, without really knowing my wife, she took time out of work to support her through chemo sessions, when I had to stay with the children (DW's mum has cancer-phobia so hasn't gone near DW since diagnosis).

My mate has to date, cheated on her several times, that I know of. He also with-holds money from her. He's also intimated (but not gone into detail) that he may possibly have hit her - that's a hazy one.

As an example of controlling behaviour. I was having a chat with J one evening when she was talking about her career. She's been in a junior position for around 9 years and I suggested that given her skills and experience she should redress her CV and go for much more senior positions. My mate overheard the conversation, stormed up to me dragged me away by my arm and said quite categorically that J does not want to move up and he doesn't think she has the "ability" (those aren't his actual words) to do anything like I was suggesting. And no she doesn't want to hear what I've said. Forgive me if I may have phrased all of that wrong, but I came away with the distinct feeling it doesn't matter what she thinks he knows better.

I'm not one, for idly, standing by when something not quite right is going on. So I'm seeking thoughts and opinions from the greater mumsnet community.

So given this scenario, I've intervened and I've talked him around to understanding that he has a control/abuse problem and that he is perpetrating it against his partner. And get him to go to some type of therapy (which type I don't know but Respect is looking pretty good at the moment). But the whole field and subject area is confusing to me and I don't know which sort would be good to suggest.

I would prefer not to hear "chop his cock off and feed it to the dogs" - my grandmother's personal opinion, which isn't really real world.

So can it happen, can a man like above actually be rehabilitated? Is it possible in the real world? Or should I get DW to tell her to "LtB"

Finally, I know it may look like I'm sticking my nose in where its not supposed to be, But if J is going though an abusive relationship, my conscience says given what she did for DW I must be in the position to return the favour (does that make sense).

Thanks

OP, I think you need to tread very carefully

It is quite possible that what he does with witnesses is only the very tip of the iceberg. When you interfere in their relationship directly he may very well make her pay for it later.

I think you need to direct the W to professional help. Your well intentioned but rather uneducated and naive input may be making things worse. You sound like a great bloke, but this woman has to decide to seek outside help for herself. Until then, all you can do is make it clear that you and your W are there for her if she needs you.

Well done for calling him out man to man though. Too many males josh along with crap like this.

Listen OP, i think you are over theorising all of this. Basically, your mate is a wanker. Not much more to be said really. If she chooses to stay with this tool, well, more fool her really.

I was an abusive wife. I am a changed person now after MANY years of therapy, self help etc. It can definately be done.

BUT I always knew I had issues that needed sorting out. If the abuser doesn't know that they have a problem, then no, they will never change.

Anyfucker I have not broached the subject at all other than between DW and here... and I'm under no illusions thats he's not a wanker but he's a mate AND a wanker

Why is he a mate then? be a mate to his wife because she needs one. tell him to go jump.

In social science research terms, an intervention that effects 15% change in people's habitual behaviours is seen as a dazzling success. And those are on fairly mild issues, comparatively. The explanation for that is that it's incredibly hard to shift human behaviours, because they're entrenched to such a degree and at such a level that most of us aren't completely aware they're there. You can do it on very simple and mechanical actions where people have a massive incentive (the back-to-sleep campaign, for example) mainly because mothers to new babies haven't any habits with that baby to shift. Altering behaviours on seatbelts took legislation and threats of fines - people just weren't using them enough when it was voluntary, despite it not being a huge change to how they behaved (a practical rather than interpersonal activity), and despite a pretty enormous and provable incentive. And if it's that hard to get people to buckle up to save their own necks, imagine how hard it must be to get them to completely alter their entire mode of behaviour, when they get an emotional and practical payoff from bad behaviour, and it's part of who they are - part of their persona?

I absolutely believe it can happen. It's just that I think you're likelier to win a smaller prize - a few grand - on the national lottery. And given we only have one life, as far as we know, and that life is pretty brief, my advice to anyone in such a relationship would be not to risk throwing years away at best, and their actual life at worst.

You sound lovely, OP. I do think other men challenging this kind of behaviour is essential if things are ever to improve, and bless you for being so willing to make a stand. I have no advice on what to do, but maybe if you called Women's Aid they could advise you and your wife on how best to offer support safely and effectively?

perfectstorm I am not lovely - just an ordinary bloke trying to make some sense of things. I've come away with the feeling that my "good intentions" would make a bad situation worse. Last week i vented my spleen here 'cos of a frustrating anger inducing situation. I referred to the person in question as a "thing" because the only words i could think to describe that person would have been really nasty. That one word, brought a huge load of misery (and personal shame) down on me. So from that perspective, I'm not lovely.

Now you are getting a little weird. Please let your dw deal with and support J, if she has the energy. the most you can do is pull your mate up on his behaviour, which you appear to be doing anyway. So good luck to you all.

I don't understand that last post either

Fact of the matter love, as much as you want this person to wake up and stop being a tosser, an abuser, a monster, until he WANTS to stop, we won't.

Lundy says that if an abuser loses everything as a result of his abuse, wife, family, mates etc only then may it perhaps, maybe, just maybe cross their minds that abuse might not be the way to go.

If anyone shows them the slightest glimmer of support for them as they are, they see this as validation!

I've seen the supposed Mentor of a Perp Programme Success.

Minimised, denied and blamed in front of everyone, even years after. I left the conference that i'd also spoken at (as a former victim) feeling hopeless, deflated and terribly sad.

The chances of rehabilitation are practically zero.

The only chance his wife has in life, realistically, is to leave him.

Please support her to do this. Don't invest your time in a violent, ugly bully? He has to help himself.

sorry I started rambling and going off topic.

thank you all for your pointers and advice

You can make a difference, but it'll be a small one - though vital. You can be there as her friend. It will be very hard becuase any normal decent person would want to do more, but only she can truly change things now. Sadly.

One of the main things you can do as a friend is to keep bringing a sense of perspective to her - that the abusive traits are -not- normal and the abuse that happens is -not- becuase she 'deserved' it. As people get more trapped, it can be harder and harder to believe that. An outside level head helps. Damn it's hard on the level head though, to see their friend gradually sucked under until the time comes that they can break away.

Im sure you've thought of this but maybe contact some of specific organisations that deal with abuse and lay this out before them. Specialist organisations may have some small tips that help, though doubtless they'll say the same that there is only so much you can do.

The biggest help you can be is not to give up on her and on him. To keep being there.

Lundy Bancroft is an interesting read if you're interested in finding out more about the subject.

It also has a good section at the back about how to approach the subject if you realise one of your friends is abusive.

I no longer have my copy, but from memory, it's extremely significant that you've called him out on it, because you are one of his peers. Unfortunately this is one of the root(s) of the problem, he finds your opinion relevant because you are a man, but does not find his wife's opinions or emotions relevant because she is a woman. You can't make him see that - to him, it would be as absurd as suggesting that the family dog should have an input into the decisions and running of the household, or has feelings and opinions which are as important as human ones. In fact, if you talk about this too much, he might even start to categorise you in his head as "one of those feminists" - good for a laugh but not for serious advice.

I don't know. I think I personally would say something, e.g. if he makes another comment like "She doesn't get a choice" (about moving) then just to look shocked and say something about how ridiculous that is. You can point him towards organisations all you want but unless he genuinely wants to change then he's likely to just dismiss them all. If he starts talking about anger management or something, that might be a good time to suggest them. Or if you think he might outwardly bluff it off but keep them and perhaps explore them in private in the future.

I agree it's very important to offer support to the DW (sounds like your DW is doing this, which is good) and to let her know you will support her, perhaps offering her a place to stay if possible, if she ever needed one. In my opinion the absolute best thing to help a victim of abuse see what is happening is to be in an environment which has a very strong sense that this kind of treatment is unacceptable. Unfortunately although this is the case for physical violence in our society, it is really not the case for emotional abuse and control. Mumsnet, however, is a fantastic environment in this way as it really does call out abuse whenever it is seen on the boards. Perhaps your DW could suggest it to her as a good place to get info on TTC etc? I know this seems a bit sneaky and underhand, but to say "You need relationship advice, go here" is very pushy, and mumsnet is a good source of advice, entertainment and friendship/support with issues like TTC as well. And it's sowing a seed.