How do we resolve argument on how much time STBXP has with DC?

[knittedknickers]

DP and I separating end of Nov and he's moving out. WE have two small children. I have been a SAHM for 3 1/2 years but have recently gone back to work pt. He's been EA towards me for years and it's only through MN that I've been able to understand it (and subsequently Lundy Bancroft) and have plucked up the courage to end it.

My issue is how we divide our time with the children. He wants them three nights a week (inc one of weekend nights, and day, obviously). Now I know this is 'fair' and I know I will get slated for wanting more time with them myself and that everyone will say it's not about what we want but what's best for the kids. I have suggested that he has them for two nights at first (one week night and one of the weekend night and days) and also comes over to mine to put them to bed, give them tea/whatever he chooses until they asleep for one eve - so, in effect, he's caring for them three nights but one of them is at my house. He doesn't have a problem with coming here to be with them but does want them to actually stay with him at his place for three nights.

As I say, I know I'm going to get shouted down here because, yes, it is fair that he has them for almost half the week, and he is a loving and very good dad. However, I am bloody so pissed off that because he could not control his temper, his nasty and malicious comments and horrendous insults and personal attacks on me every time we had a disagreement, that I've now got to forfeit time with my gorgeous and much longed-for children. He is playing Superdad at the moment and doesn't shout at them/do any of the discipline stuff - just leaves all that to me (great) but generally we differ greatly on parenting styles. He is very shouty and doesn't set boundaries while I am quite strong on setting boundaries but am fairly stable and constant with them. Despite this, though, they do of course love him very much and I know that they are his life.

Please give me your opinions. I am particularly interested in people who have been in EA relationships in this situation. Do I have to suck it up and stop being so selfish for the sake of the children and him?

How old are the children? The younger they are, the stronger the argument for keeping overnighters to a minimum. You realise, of course, that a manipulative bully can't keep up the 'superdad' act for very long and will sooner or later drop the mask, lose his temper and treat the children the same way he did with you?

If he is verbally abusive, shouts, domineering with the children he shouldn't have any overnight contact at all.

I wouldn't have him to your house to do put to beds at all if possible, it will be confusing for the children to have him do that but not be in the household. He needs to establish a new other home for them , assuming he can get his act together.

If he can man the fuck up and act like a proper parent then 50/50 or as near to it as practical is best. My ex has the DCs 2 nights one week and 3 the next.

I think having him come to your house will be a disaster, especially as he is abusive to you.

It's not about what's fair. Is he a good enough dad to the children? Will they be safe and well cared for at his house 3 nights a week?

Would one week night and every other whole weekend be a acceptable compromise?

BTW.... don't have him coming too your house at all. Emotional abusers are very persistent and damn sly. He's already got you worried that you're being unreasonable when you're probably not. See how it starts? Any contact you have with him should be bare bones information only and preferably e-mail rather than face to face or phone-calls. Let him in your home and it'll be as bad as if he never left.

Don't know what the 'right' answer here but just wanted to say well done for moving on, and I totally understand how you feel about this. How old are the dc? Half the week elsewhere is extremely tiring when the kids are young.

Deffo agree him putting kids to bed at your house = recipe for disaster all round: remember your are establishing new boundaries. Do not blur any boundaries.

They are five and three. Eldest is, I have to say, a total daddies boy (though I do have a very good relationship with him). He has an undiagnosed condition (poss autism/ADHD and the signs are becoming more obvious). I gave up my career for few years to spend more time with them as was concerned about them (eldest particularly) as felt he was struggling - he has kind of erratic/nervous episodes. I am absolutely dreading the fall-out from this. They will be devastated (esp oldest, I think) but I really feel this is the best thing to do in the circumstances. I have had so much help from people on here, through my various threads.

This sounds like I'm trying to justify my position and be self-righteous but DPs 'problems' (if I can call them that) stem from his upbringing. I know that his family will be all over the kids and that he has given them the impression that I have stopped them from seeing our DC as much as he would have liked in the past. I am worried about the influence they and their (in my opinion) 'cold' ways will have on the kids. I guess I sound controlling and paranoid but I feel like his parents will get their claws into them and influence them. They have very differing style to mine. They will give them loads sugary drinks, let them play computer games, guns/fighty things for ages, etc etc. I know this sounds snobby of me - I'm not saying these things are wrong, I'm just saying that at the moment I can limit how much this happens but in the future, if he has them half the time, I feel my influence will be vastly lessened. I just feel bloody annoyed that these kids that I love so much and waited for years to have are now going to be living away from me, possibly for half the time. But there again - it's the same for him. Oh no. I'm a mess.

You know your children best. This arrangement shouldn't be about what's fair for the two of you. It's about what's best for the children.

You need to decide what impact any arrangement will have on them, including the potentially confusing situation whereby he is coming into your home to put them to bed. What happens if her gets shouty in your home?

It isn't unreasonable to expect him to put their needs first either.

I guess from your post that they are quite young. How will staying in different houses during the week affect them once they have started school? That could make life very complicated with homework/uniform/PE kit in different places. You'd have to be very organised and work very well in cooperation to make that work.

It is important for him to see them during the week but having them overnight is adding complications for not much benefit to them.

I would push for overnights at the weekend and them going to him for the evening once or twice a week but coming home at bedtime.

When my ex left I suggested that he have our two kids (both primary school age) one night in the week and every other weekend (Fri and Sat nights). If felt this was reasonable and had read that while kids need to see both parents they also need stability and to know where "home" is. As I am the main carer (work part time, do most school runs, after school activities etc) it didn't make sense for him to have them more.

At first he tried to argue for a 50:50 split, but I stood firm saying that I didn't think it would be in the kids best interest, or practical. I also consulted a lawyer who said that a court would probably consider our arrangement appropriate - given that I did most of the child care, and would not over-rule it.

It is now over a year on, and this is still our arrangement and generally works well. The kids are well balanced and coping well (although would prefer us to be together).

Good luck!

One weekend night every single week is not fair, IMO. It's why things are usually every other weekend in full. Once both are at school your ex will have them for the fun days and you'll be stuck with the midweek grunt work. Every other weekend plus a midweek overnight or two is standard, and your smaller one is pretty tiny even for that if you're a SAHM and he doesn't do much of the care, though it would be an ideal to build towards.

Contact is not about fairness for parents. It's about what benefits the kids most. Obviously if he is a good father and it works well for the kids then shared care is the optimal outcome, but it relies on the parents co-operating well so the kids don't grow up as the battlefield of a parental war. And if he's aggressive and scary with them then the question does have to be asked: how will that impact them, going forward?

Don't have him over to put them to bed. Quite apart from your need to set boundaries it will be horribly confusing for them.

I have to ask: is he fighting dirty over money, as you say he is emotionally abusive? Might his determination to have them 3 nights a week stem partly from the CSA implications? If he has them almost half the week, then his CSA payments will reduce accordingly. As they're very little and you've offered to have him care for them in their own beds to minimise disruption, and he's dead set on his own roof overnight... it could be just an understandable wish to be a full parent to them, which means all through the nights. But it could also be financially driven if he's not been that hands on in the past. Only you can really know the answer there.

Shouty aggressive parenting is horrible for kids, but then so too is losing a parent, and you say one child in particular is very dad oriented. And boundaries vary from person to person. I wouldn't say having different parenting styles was in any way at all a deal breaker. Aggression and bullying, though, definitely so.

6 months ago DD1 was referred to the youth assessment team for assessment for ADHD/Aspergers she was having a terrible time at school and life was really not good. She was seeing her father every Wednesday evening and one day at weekends when it fitted with everything else people were doing, the contact was supervised by his parents and he was supposed to be completing a perpetrators of domestic violence course and getting some counselling for his anger issues.

It became apparent that he wasn't actually doing the course or getting help for his issues so I reported him to the police for the abuse he had subjected me to and I ceased contact between him and the children.

Last week DD1 was assessed again by the educational psychologist at school and he concluded that she didn't have ADHD or Aspergers and that her issues were all related to the emotional distress she was going through at the hands of her dad. She and her little sister are totally different children than they were last time they saw their dad and most of their issues have already disappeared although DD1 will be assessed again in 3 months or if she is forced to see her dad again.

I'm not saying that this is the issue with your eldest but its something to consider maybe.

My ex and I have done 50/50 for almost 2.5 years and it has worked very well - however we had a very amicable split and neither of us had to get over any major resentment or trauma, which has got to make it all so much harder

On a practical note, things about 50/50 we have found not to be the case:

1. "It's impossible/difficult to manage school uniform/child's things between two houses." It's not at all complicated. He has everything he needs at both houses and we do very little transfer of stuff, at most a carrier bag on the weekend.
2. "It's horrible to live out of a suitcase" Sure, but that simply isn't the case. He has a full complement of clothes/toys/books at both houses.
3. "Children are carted backwards and forwards between the two houses" In the week he is at school and after school club. If one parent takes him to school and the other collects him, it's no different than if he was going to and from the same house every day. We both live about 10 minutes from school and each other.
4. "Children get confused about where their 'home' is" Not necessarily. My son considers both his home equally, which to me is preferable to a 'real' home with one parent and a 'visiting' as a guest at the other other parent (but that was really hard to cope with emotionally to begin with)

I understand your concern about different parenting styles/family involvement. It's really hard to let go. But please don't worry that your influence will be lessened, it won't be and their love for you will never be halved. Going to 50/50 was very tough, and I still miss my son a lot when he's at his dad's. I always do, but I also get on with life and I'm afforded opportunities most separated mums don't have. I get through it because I know my son loves his dad and needs to be with him as much as he needs to be with me, and because my ex is an amazing father and it would kill him not to have the maximum amount of time with our son as much as it would me.

I don't know what to advise to help you get through all these feelings (or whether 50/50 is right in your case) although I can empathise with a lot of it. It's a bitter, bitter pill to swallow, losing time with your children at home no matter what the circumstances, and it has got to be so much worse when there is EA or DV or infidelity, but if he poses no threat of harm to the children and time with him is not damaging to him then their need to spend decent amounts of time with him is important. If it's traumatic for an adult to contemplate losing 20 or 30% of their time with a child, it has to be significantly more upsetting for a small child to lose 80 or 90% of their time with their mummy or daddy.

P.S. I agree that having him coming over to your house to do bedtimes etc is not a great idea.

^And if he's aggressive and scary with them then the question does have to be asked: how will that impact them, going forward?

And boundaries vary from person to person. I wouldn't say having different parenting styles was in any way at all a deal breaker. Aggression and bullying, though, definitely so. ^
Yes to both these comments of perfectstorm

Thanks so much for messages - all interesting and given me a lot to consider. I take on board suggestions from hettienne and others re: alternating whole weekends. I just thought it seemed more cruel to make XP go for that long without them (except for week night, obviously) but I guess it makes sense for him to spend that long with them, and me also when it's their w/e with me and enables time to relax and have fun together etc.

Cogito and Handywoman and, well, everyone actually!.. I'm re-thinking the letting him do bedtime in my home now. I thought it would be good for the kids to have him in the 'family home' and also it would mean I was around too so could monitor the possible shouting (or at least that XP would be on 'good behaviour' more with me around). I do understand about starting afresh though and boundaries - I just also think his family will swoop in if DC are at his where as they won't come round to mine to 'help'!!

To be fair, though, he's not aggressive at all to the DC. He does shout sometimes but it never gets nasty or threatening towards them.

Perfectstorm I don't think his reason for wanting them to be with him three nights is about money (I don't think anyway but not definite). We haven't discussed CSA (is that the same thing as 'maintenance'?) payment yet. He doesn't earn a great amount and I don't think he'd be able to afford much. I did see a solicitor who explained the way payment is split but I'm not sure whether to fight for this. I mean, at the moment, anyway I'm earning enough to survive but in the future, I may be worried about money and then I guess I would need to ask him for money. I'm hoping I'll be eligible for CTC as a lone parent.

freemanbatch - really happy to hear your DD is thriving now - thank you for sharing that. It is interesting - I do wonder how our rows have affected DS1 and how much of his behaviour is down to that (I mean I feel bloody terrible about it if this is the root of it but at least I know I'm now doing something about it, IYKWIM).

itwasaruby - thanks for the reassurance. I do feel like I'll be a 50% mother but I guess in the long-run it's about how much love and security you can give them not just how much time you spend with them.

An abusive man is NOT a good father.

Basically the LEAST amount of exposure is the best tbh.

You know your Lundy, you know the only chance there is of an abuser changing is when he loses everything as a result of his abuse.

Was his abuse documented?

Minimal contact for the first few months, to get the children strong and see where they are. You will see a massive change in them. For the better, but not if he keeps his claws in.

This'll not be about the children for him, it'll be about taking them away from you for a bit, and it'll be about him being a hero dad.

Stick to what you know is best. You are their mother here, you're not an abuser.

Tell him to do a course before you'll consider increased access.

Thanks, Hissy. He has done an Anger Management course but he didn't hold back over last few months so not sure how effective that was! On the one hand, I understand how angry and frustrated he is. I'd hate to be told I have to move out of family home and that my partner is basically 'deciding' when I can see my children. But on other hand, I don't shout every time I don't like what my partner says and call him names...
Thanks for advice - I just want to be fair to him, fair to the DC and yet don't want to have to give up so much time with them etc.

I think this is very difficult as there is so many different things to consider. The age of the DC's being important. You sound as if you're bending over backwards to be fair to him. I agree that it's not such a good idea having him over to your house to put them to bed if he is EA and controlling. I don't know how people manage the practicalities of 50% care. But some do.

If he's abusive enough to need anger management, then I can't see how half the week in his sole care is in the best interests of very small children, I have to say. Obviously it's the ideal if parents can co-operate and communicate well, and the kids aren't unsettled by not having one primary home, but I don't see how it can work when he's abusive to you. Too many opportunities for conflict.

Please don't be so caught up in being fair to him you lose sight of being fair to the kids.

absolutely do not dont have him round to yours to do bath time etc
confusing for kis does he live her or doesnt he?
bad for you as he might start arguing etc...

they can get used to two homes .

let go of the grandparents influence too many sweets etc - that is not worth a battle over. let it go

if he is being super dad having nice time with them - that's a good thing for them. [will it last one wonders]

come up with something that is as near to fifty fifty as possible for next three months then agree to review.

Anger management is a pile of bollocks anyway, he doesn't have a problem managing his anger with his boss, his family/friends etc, does he?

Just YOU.

He needs to go on an Abuse perpetrators course. RESPECT (iirc) can advise him.

Do what you can to keep him away from you all, until he's no longer abusive.

Tall impossible order, but that's the situation you're in.

Speak to your GP, Health Visitor, school, nursery, everyone to make sure the dynamic here is well known/documented. If when this gets ugly, cos it will you will have the support/back up you need to help protect yourself and your children.

"I just thought it seemed more cruel to make XP go for that long without them"
This leapt out at me.
You need to think about what is best for the children. Not what is fair to him.
Nevermind the fact that he may want more contact with the children not because of his deep love and affection for them, but because it gives him control (over you and them). What really is his motivation here?

A story: two neighbours split up. They didn't have children, but did have a dog. They split custody of the dog 50:50. When the dog was at the house near me, it was often left alone in the evenings, and howled. Was 50:50 custody the best for the dog?

Too true mummytime!

The coming to the house thing just exacerbates his control over knittedknickers too.

To paraphrase 'you abuse, you lose' :)

He doesn't get to dictate anything wrt the children. He moves out, you arrange a number of hours for him to have access per week, and all being well that may be increased depending on his behaviour, the children's wellbeing, his accommodation etc.

In principle 50/50 is a goal to work towards, but it's not a right of his, it's providing it's in the best interests of the children.

I was going to come on here and tell you that YABU when I started reading your post, but by the time I got to the end of it, I changed my mind.

In cases where there is no abuse, 50/50 is an ideal starting point, to be negotiated around based on what is best for the children. Often this is very unfair on one of the parents, but they have to suck it up because the children's needs come first.

In the case of abuse, what is best for the children is limited exposure to the values and parenting style of an abuser. Being an abuser is a state of
being. If it can be applied to one person alone, then clearly the abuser is capable of controlling it. This makes you realise that anger management is not the solution, because anger and loss of control is not the problem. If they were, the abuse would be indiscriminate. In some cases it is, but these people are among our least functional members of society.

Instead, abuse centres on the entitled belief that you should be allowed to behave in any way you see fit in order to get what you want. That sense of entitlement is influenced by people's ability to stand up to you - so you often find an abuser will abuse a partner but not their boss. Once you realise that, you realise just how vulnerable children are.

I don't know the depth of your STBXP's EA. If he's just a manipulative arse, you may well be able to contain his negative influence through your own consistent parenting, but the more contact he is allowed, the less that will be the case.

Good luck with it all.