How much is too much?

[Crispswithchocolate]

First time poster but I genuinely don't know what to do or if I am being unreasonable or not. I'm typing this with tears running down my cheeks.

My husband has always liked a drink. I've only seen him 'drunk' on a couple of occasions over the last ten years, but he does put away a fair few units every night. Generally, he'll have about five cans of lager and a bottle of wine. We try to have a couple of non-drinking days a week, but this rarely happens and we manage one at best. The amount he drinks has always been an issue between us and is something we often argue about.

Now, my husband has decided to cut down and has stopped drinking beer. This means that he now has three quarters, to a bottle of wine, a night. We were just discussing this and I stated that I think this is still too much. I'm desperately scared that he's doing himself serious damage and this amount of alcohol will significantly impact on his life expectancy - I can't cope with that thought for me or our children. Anyway, he's furious with me for 'badgering' and being unsupportive, for not acknowledging the progress he's made and for trying to stop him enjoying his life. He said he doesn't care how long he's here for as long as he enjoys himself. He says I should mind my own business and let him look after himself. To me this seems selfish but I don't know if I am just overreacting. I know he's an adult, but I can't just stop caring and being concerned about him, and thinking about the impact that his decisions have on the rest of us. In every other respect he's wonderful, caring and a brilliant husband and father.

I don't know what to do next. Shall I just keep quiet now, having made my point? Any suggestions of how to approach this would be appreciated enormously. I can't cope with us arguing about this all the time, the arguments are becoming worse every time.

It's not overreacting to be unhappy at living with an alcohol abuser/heavy drinker/alcoholic the term is unimportant. He is doing himself some damage, he's probably drinking more than you realise (or more than he's owning up to) and it's significant that he gets aggressive simply for having it suggested he cuts down. Yes, it's selfish because all substance abusers love the substance more than anything else.

It goes further than the damage to himself, of course. (I've lived with an alcoholic before.. ) What happens, I wonder, if you or a DC was taken ill one evening? He couldn't drive you to hospital. What happens if a DC wakes up at night and needs something? Is he out cold and you have to do it? How does all that lager and wine impact on your grocery budget? In fact... who buys it?

You might benefit from contacting Al-Anon.

As for 'how much is too much'.... the drinkaware website has a simple test you can run. I'm very sure you'll find that, for an adult man, a bottle of wine a night every night is way too much.

Thanks Cogito, if I'm honest, I do know that it's too much. We live in a community where lots of people drink more than 'recommended' amounts so I think I've allowed by own views to become skewed.

I just don't know what to do next. He has taken steps to dramatically reduce his alcohol intake and my involvement seems to be almost counter-productive (I.e. the more I say the more of a backlash it causes- things HAVE to be his idea). I just want to help and I want to be allowed to care about him without all this.

There is no way you can constructively help someone control their alcohol consumption if they don't think it's a problem. God knows I tried... You can refuse to buy wine and beer and don't bring it into the house. But that doesn't stop them accessing it, of course. You can provide dire consequences - eg LTB - if they don't stop. In my case the B eventually chose to L to be with an OW who (and I quote) 'doesn't have a problem with the amount I drink'

Op I can see why you are so worried. This is definitely too much. And the need to drink every day is also something to worry about. Do you usually have a glass when he is drinking. If you maybe don't join in maybe this will slightly put him off?
You can try to get him to change as much as you want but until he realizes that his drinking is a problem then you are wasting your time. Do you think asking him to get a checkup at the doc may make him more aware of his health?

He is drinking too much, but he needs to admit that himself and want to do something about it. You can't do it for him.

Do you drink too, OP?

I'm going to recommend contacting Al-Anon too. You can find out more about alcohol addiction/dependence and what you can do to help yourself (notice that I didn't say 'help him').

There is nothing you can do to control his alcohol intake. Don't even try - you will drive yourself mad. He definitely has a problem with alcohol but you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it. (I'm pinching Al-Anon words there).

Good luck. I am desperately sorry to read your post, as I've been there and done that and it's a hard road. Please get some support. Don't be like me and keep it all under wraps for too long.

OP, the amount he is drinking now is still far, far too much. And the reason he got angry was not because you undermined him, or were unsupportive, or whatever, but because he knows, deep down, that it's still far too much and that he has a massive problem. Think of it is way: if he was smoking crack, injecting heroin and snorting coke, but then he cut down until he was just smoking crack, it'd still be very serious, wouldn't it?

Everything he said in defence of his drinking was a collection of the most clichéd things alcoholics say to minimise and rationalise their need to drink. And he is an alcoholic, don't fool yourself he's not. An alcoholic is not a tramp stumbling about under a railway arch.

I do drink a bit, one glass at most, most nights, and I agree that stopping doing that will help. It's become such a social thing, but I know you're right, and I'm being hypocritical and unhelpful drinking myself when I'm asking him to cut down. He does the majority of his drinking when I've gone to bed. I also agree that he'll find it harder to start during an evening if I'm just having a cup of tea.

We've just talked some more and he's said he'll stop drinking altogether. This seemed a bit of an extreme reaction, and I almost found myself trying to talk him out of it (I don't want him to miss out on wine with special dinners or a pint with friends) but stopped myself. He said that he thought he was doing really well, but will try harder and cut it out completely. I do trust him and I know he can stop without any adverse affects (he did while I was pregnant) but I do wish he'd come to this conclusion himself.

Thanks so much for all your comments. They've really made me think.

it sounds like he has been made to think about the situation and has come to his own conclusion. Most people can drink occasionally and be fine. You need to see if he can do this or not - will it slowly escalate >

it is also important that you join him in not drinking regularly.

Not drinking at all is probably his best move but just be careful that this 'all or nothing' grand gesture isn't just that... a gesture. My alcoholic ex would do this from time to time and indeed, he seemed to be able to give up quite easily for a few weeks. But it would always end the same way. He'd be annoyed/stressed/happy about something (any excuse basically), claim he'd 'earned' a drink and, if I reminded him that he'd given up, it would turn into an almighty argument where I was blamed for 'forcing' his self-imposed abstinence.

So just keep your eyes open and your wits sharp

Definitely he's drinking to excess, problem is, sounds like he's always done it so why would he now listen to you?

Not a lot you can do until he himself acknowledges that he has a problem.

Cogito, I just ran my own drinking and my mothers through that test. We both came out with the same answer.

I am a 29 year old man, who never drinks in the house. I go out 2 or 3 times a year and will drink 3 or 4 pints on these occasions, but no more than that. My mother is a 56 year old who drink 4 glasses of cheap wine per night every single night.

And yet we both have the same answer? That doesn't make sense to me.

Crisps, his drinking sounds excessive, and is likely to cause him long term health problems. But, he has acknowledged the problem and cut out about 60% of his units by dropping the beer.

It's not enough to have cut down this much, but it is a good start and you should congradulate him on making that cut down. That measn he's taken the first step of acknowledging there is a problem and is trying to move into action. If he can sustain the cut down, maybe he'll be able to cut down some more. In my experience of addiction habbits like this, pushing to much will only push him back into old ways.

I have to take exception with that last statement. The OP is neither pushing him into old ways with alcohol or capable of pulling him away. She will be used as the excuse for him to drink more but she is emphatically not responsible for how much he drinks.

@TheKnights... the initial test is very brief, just three questions, but if you check out the units I think your DM's cheap wine will show up as being over the recommended amount.

No, but he has taken the first step and is likely to need support to help cut down. Clearly, he is an alcoholic who could do with professional help to cut down.

I just wanted to point out hat he has made a good first step with cutting out the beer. With posts telling her needs to cut down more, I thought I'd try to point out that it is a positive that he has already made a change and OP should not take the opportunity to attack, but to encourage this change by congradulating it and maybe he will make further changes.

Speaking as one who has been taken for a ride on the cut-down, support, relapse merry-go-round by an alcoholic, it doesn't matter whether she is congratulatory and encouraging or if she is openly critical ... if he wants a drink, he'll have a drink and he'll find a way to turn whatever the OP has said into a reason why that drink is a good idea.
e.g.
'Well done cutting down on the booze husband. I'm very proud of you'
'You're such a patronising goody two-shoes, I'm going to drink this scotch just to spite you'

That may be the case, but a little pessimistic. By that logic, there is nothing anyone can do so she might as well give him up.

If it does end up being a cycle like that, I'd agree with you.

When you're talking about alcohol 'pessimism' is actually a pretty good position to take.

It's the old pessimism/optimism arguement, really.

Glass half empty - he still drinks too much. There is no hope with alcoholics.
Glass half full - he's cut down a lot, there may be some hope.

Would also suggest that you contact Al-anon as they are helpful to family members of problem drinkers like your H is.

Re this earlier comment of yours:-
"I just want to help and I want to be allowed to care about him without all this".

There is a fine line between helping and enabling however, and enabling will not help either you or he. He has to want to help his own self, you cannot and must not do anything to influence that process.

He is likely underestimating badly how much he is drinking, attempts to cut down without outside help are more often than not doomed to failure. He is always thinking about where the next drink is coming from, that mindset will not easily change if at all. He could well go onto lose everything and still drink afterwards, he has made a conscious choice to start drinking.

Bluntly put you are too close to the situation to be of any real use to him, besides which he does not want your help or support. That is undoubtedly hard for you to read but its fact; only he can help his own self here. His primary relationship is currently with drink; you and the children are not his number 1 priority here.

I would look at your long term future carefully with such a man because you have a choice re him, your children do not. Children growing up in a household where one or both parents are alcoholic leaves many children as adults with a whole host of emotional problems. Think carefully too about the sort of childhood they are seeing, they are after all learning from the two of you.

The 3cs re alcoholism are ones you would do well to remember:-
you did not cause this
you cannot control this
you cannot cure this

He is also not either a wonderful or brilliant father (let alone husband) if he is abusing alcohol like this and to your family's detriment. Women often write that sort of comment when they themselves have nothing positive to write about their man.

Your children likely hear all the arguments and pick up all the vibes.
Having a drunkard for a father will do them no favours either, apart from emotional problems they are learning how to behave around him and you. They do not want to upset you either. They are likely to be extremely compliant, super responsible and or very quiet. They will not want to bring their friends home and if they go to other houses they too clearly see that their friends dads are not drunk or drink like their dad does. They see all the recycling empties as well.