Crit my marriage please as I have no healthy model to compare to (v long)

[Jessdurberville]

Lurking on relationships board for many years hoping to get a feel for what constitutes a happy marriage and family. My birth family was pretty dysfunctional though all siblings get along great now - one studying psychotherapy has helped us iron out issues over the years. My parents relationship was and is a car crash.
DH and I have been together 17 years, married 15 and have 3 DC. We have our own business which suffered hugely in recession but we weathered that and various family dramas etc, both of us are early 40's. For various reasons I have been taking stock of our marriage and I'm not happy with many elements. On a day to day level we function well - household/ childcare/ working are all split fairly equally but things that bother me are:
The coldness that exists between us, no hugs (ever), no kissing except during sex or a peck on the lips at night. I am very touchy-feely with kids and friends though not with my own family. DH doesn't like being touched or stroked as his skin is very sensitive. Sometimes on the couch at night I put my feet in his lap, he used to stroke them but now mostly ignores.

DH constantly criticizes me, particularly my cooking and everything I do at work. He has succeeded in pushing me out of the kitchen and if I do cook he either stands over me commenting on everything or if I cook while he is out he will pull it apart when he gets home - it gives him indigestion/ I use too much butter/ we ate this two days ago ...... on and on. He got the kids to rate something I cooked the other day against his version - I got marked out of 10. It was supposed to be light-hearted but I just felt undermined. This also happens at work.

I don't feel we are particularly effective parents and our parenting styles are very different. Probably in response to my own affection-free childhood I was instinctively practiced attachment parenting - babies were breastfed (third child until she was 2 1/2), slept in our bed and were carried in slings. I read all the parenting books I can get my hands on, I try hard to iron out the flaws I know I have - I tend to be a bit moody and tempermental. When I am I tell the kids - I need some peace and quiet or I go for a walk etc. DH is grumpy all the time and very shouty with them all, particularly with eldest who is a teenager. Eldest is very quiet, sweet boy - good in school etc etc but DH gets on his case all the time. Seems to be incapable of reading him - eg getting antsy when DS makes a joke - takes it seriously instead. I seem to be constantly peacemaking between the two then DH tells me I am undermining him as a parent. I genuinely don't want to and find myself saying nothing when I desperately want to defend DS sometimes.

Feeling a bit teary writing this down and thank you if you've got this far. In your honest opinion how much of this is normal day-to-day stuff or do we have real issues we need to sort out?

Your DH sounds like a bully. He critiques your cooking FFS??? He doesn't sound loving or caring at all towards you or your DC.

Agree with juneau, your DH sounds like an unloving bully. The constant criticism doesn't sound like normal day-to-day stuff at all.

You DH sounds very unpleasant and rather bullying. Shouting at DCs is an occupational hazard but the level you describe and especially the part that you say nothing rather than defend your DS on this 'undermining' business is rather worrying. Nit-picking about butter and getting children to mark your cooking.. it's low-level horrible but it'll get you down if it happens regularly.

You are not there to be a peacemaker and you're not there to tolerate insults. You're meant to be an equal partnership and I'm not seeing equality here... just one man throwing his weight about and everyone else walking on eggshells.

What happens when he says there's too much butter in the cooking? Do you tell him to fuck off and cook his own or do you defer?

I imagine it's not helping you working together as well. You have no unbiased party to accurately appraise you and make you feel worth something and strong again.

Any chance you can get a job outside the business?

Thanks everyone for contributing. I feel guilty that I didn't talk about his good points (op was already so long) - I was trying to focus on what bothers me.
@cogito - I do point out that there is no need to criticize, that I am doing my best. He is very, very funny and if I get annoyed or upset he will defuse the situation immediately with a joke. You can't stay cross when you've been laughing.
It is all very low-level but at this point I actually feel a bit sad in the relationship, unloved - in fact I don't think he even likes me much anymore. I have suggested time and time again that we should go for counselling together but he won't hear of it. I tried to broach the 'coldness' between us in conversation but he didn't really acknowledge it. If I try and discuss our relationship he will say things like (and I quote!) 'I have no regrets'. I just find it confusing - if he's not happy then lets discuss things, if you are happy then tell me -saying 'I have no regrets' doesn't convince me that things are ok. Sometimes I feel that he behaves like this to drive me away so that I will break us up so he isn't the bad guy. Do people do that? What should I do?

and hand-holding, Jess you have my empathy. It sounds as if he may have lost respect for you (this may be mutual? It's a chicken-and-egg situation with my own DH and me so that is why I ask?) and the cooking stuff is him trying to get your DCs to engage in his belittling of you. Insensitive at best, cruel at worst; either way, it shows he is angry at you. If he recognises that you are an intelligent, well-informed and successful parent and he himself is struggling to deal with the pressures of parenting and is not connecting with his children, he is very possibly jealous. Men are frequently not good at asking for help, and if you are successfully getting help (i.e. acquiring and utilising knowledge) about something he himself is struggling to do (parenting) he is going to be lashing out. It isn't mature or attractive, so it really is up to you how you approach it. If you still love him, perhaps look at ways to help him become a better parent? If he isn't open to learning new skills that will help him succeed, then it's your call whether you continue in the relationship.

@alikat, thanks for the kind words. You are right, he is not good at asking for help. I know he is feeling unfulfilled (he has underutilised talents) but I am being supportive in every way I can. I do love him but feel that the love has gone from our relationship - as a family we are great (mostly) but as a couple things are rubbish.
What are you doing in your situation?

"he behaves like this to drive me away so that I will break us up so he isn't the bad guy. Do people do that?"

They can do. But bullies also belittle those around them in order to boost their self-esteem. When you finally crack and have a go back at them they use the 'you're as bad as I am' line or - in your case - 'I'm just joking' I have no idea what 'I have no regrets' is supposed to mean but it sounds pompous and ambiguous at the same time.

Ultimately, if you feel unloved it's probably because you're not loved.

Reading your OP, I think you do have issues, but they are mostly of your H's making. You sound emotionally intelligent, caring and very astute about the dynamics at play in your family. While I accept that your H is bound to have his good points - otherwise you'd have reached this point an awful lot sooner - I don't think they can excuse his bad points in full. In particular I'd be very wary of the way he uses humour to defuse things. It's not ok to really hurt someone and then make a joke out of it - even if it is genuinely funny. It dismisses the effect on you of the bad behaviour and is a way of avoiding taking responsibility for it.

What are you hoping to get from this exercise? Is it as simple as wanting some reassurance that your unhappiness is justified? Are you prepared for the fact that validating your feelings could potentially result in a situation where you feel your marriage is all but over? I think you are perhaps heading that way anyway based on what you've said about your H appearing as if he's pushing you into ending it so he can avoid being the bad guy. Certainly if he refuses to discuss anything, you may have no choice if you want to achieve change - whether that's forcing him to confront the problems via an ultimatum that you'll leave if you don't, or actually ending it for good.

You're unhappy. That's a good enough reason to stand up and say you're no longer prepared to put up with the status quo. If he loves you he should listen to that, even if it's difficult to hear. I hope you manage to find a way through this.

Fortunately, for all our faults and our car crash of a marriage, DH and I are both open to trying counselling, courses, etc. Although our 3 sessions of Relate marriage counselling weren't exactly a success, we are signed up to do an intensive weekend couples workshop at the beginning of Nov (Imago, not sure if anyone's heard of it?). We need to learn to communicate properly, find the basis of our for each other respect again, otherwise we will split. Like you we are very good at the practicalities - sharing childcare, financial responsibilities, household stuff very equally - but very poor emotionally.

Thanks cogito. It's hard to read that he doesn't love and it is making me cry but of course it's true. Just don't know where to go from here. It feels wrong to put my need to be loved (however I define that) above the family and kids etc. I can't 'make' him love me, I can see i already tailor my behaviour to his expectations. My sister has told me to try walking in the door from work and saying 'I'd love a hug' and do you know what - I just couldn't bring myself to do that. Because of that I am prepared to be told that I am at fault, I can't ask him to be affectionate towards me - I'm just not capable of it. So am I the cold one?

Problems:

1. Coldness. - He has sensitive skin. Reasonable excuse for not wanting to be stroked. Perhaps he doesn't touch or stroke you because he doesn't want to encourage you to reciprocate.

1. DH Constantly criticizes you/You feel constantly criticized.

Has your disharmonious childhood left you feeling sensitive/paranoid. I'm not saying it has, I am just raising the question. He remarks on your cooking (jokingly ?) and you get upset. While your ds jokes with him and he gets upset. Your dh seems to have problems both reading you and your ds, perhaps he is a little insenitive and a bad communicator?

1. Your DH thinks you undermine him about his parenting and you think he undermines you about your cooking.

Seems to me you both might benefit from making greater efforts to cummincate more delicately with all the family.

Jess, if you ask for what you want and you don't receive it, then you can judge him on his unwillingness to give you what you want. But if you don't ask for what you want, then you cannot blame anyone for you not getting what you want.

He might love you but he clearly has a problem expressing his feelings, any in fact and between that and the criticising it's no wonder you feel teary and not good enough. Of course you are good enough but if he continues in this vein I don't give your marriage much hope, eventually it will be dead. You need to work at a relationship, both of you, not just you. I'd sit him down and give him two barrels, what's the worst that could happen, least he will know how much he is upsetting you and how unhappy you feel.

Thanks for all the insights - it really helps to have some more perspectives. I will sit him down for a frank chat.

OP, I saw a therapist for a while who was also am Imago therapist, and although that's not really what he used with me (it's usually for communication in couples, I think) he did use some of the techniques. I also attended a weekend workshop he organised for singles, communication based on Imago techniques - it taught me a lot. Your DH won't be able to limit himself to statements like, 'I have no regrets', and it will force you both to really listen to the other and try to understand. I hope it's useful to you both.

Thanks Morien - I will look up Imago, haven't heard of it but then I am not based in the UK.

"I can't ask him to be affectionate towards me - I'm just not capable of it. So am I the cold one?"

You're not cold, you've simply learned to be anxious. Sadly, that's what happens when you've been ground down by a bully. The kinds of ordinary things other people say and do quite naturally without thinking... like cooking a meal or saying 'give us a hug' or sticking up for their own DS .... have become anxiety-provoking moments for you because you get a negative reaction every time. In a healthy relationship of equals, you should be able to say, do and think anything at all within reason. You should not be second-guessing someone else's reaction.

BTW.. it's not recommended to engage in joint counselling where there is bullying/controlling behaviour. Individual counselling but not joint. The reason is that bullies/controlling types tend to use counselling not as a spring-board for self-improvement (he thinks there is nothing wrong with his behaviour after all) but either as an opportunity to grandstand their superiority or as a source of material to grind their victim down further

That makes sense, Cogito... But Imago might be ok as it's not exactly counselling, more like communication techniques. I think, anyway (don't know much about these things so happy to be corrected...)