DW - She's just not that in to me.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, back again for more useful advice from the nest of vipers! I had a previous thread on here whinging about my lack of sex life with DW and got a vast amount of very useful advice from a range of viewpoints. As ever in these situations it’s taken me a few months to process and take heed of that advice (and read all the recommended literature), but now I have I’m back for more.

So, quick potted history. DW and me been married five years, together before that for five. Two DCs ages 2 and 4. Limited sex life since DCs came along so thought I’d come here for advice a few months back. Made an effort to be more appreciative, attentive and physically affectionate (without pressure for anything more) and was happy for a time. DTD a couple of times at DWs instigation, got knocked back a few times and have realised that it was basically pity sex and I feel a bit sh*t now.

I have tried to talk about it a few times but without much success DW is quite reserved and when I suggested counselling last time I broached the subject it ended in tears, she said she didn’t want to lose me and assumed counselling was a precursor to divorce. Looking back I think she may have been thinking about the impacts of a split, rather than losing me personally, I’m confident I can support her and DCs and live elsewhere though so I don’t think that’ll be an issue.

Anyway, all this means I think she probably doesn’t see me as a romantic prospect anymore, we still get on well, good friends even affectionate with hugs and kisses, but sex feels forced and lonely (for me anyway). She deserves better and I’m not happy with the status quo, so I reckon we’ll be heading for a split soon. I don't see why this can’t be amicable and why co-parenting can’t work out well, but I still love her, I still want her as my wife and I want to try and emotionally detach myself from these feelings to enable the split to be amicable and with as little pain as possible. Any words of wisdom/advice/experiences of similar would be welcome.

I was not suggesting OP DW is wallowing, merely that some people do (and you can wallow quietly in your own head and become accustomed to not e.g. going out and then give up)

I am just countering some of the MN bias that man =bad woman=right which is coming out in this thread. it seems like some posters are desperately looking for ways in which the OP must be to blame when he is making a good effort to see things from different perspectives but is in a difficult situation which in reality is probably no ones fault but just the way things are for now.

And also that it should not be underestimated how difficult this is for the OP. (yes his DW deserves sympathy too but she is not the one asking for help and i am conscious that when women post on MN asking about their DHs their DHs get precious little sympathy)

i hope try do sort things out. it sounds like there is a lot of love there.
But i don't think it should be underestimated how hard a situation this can be to be in. the OP is not just giving up.

OP, I don't think you are being at all selfish or unreasonable. You married someone you very much loved and had a great relationship with, and you now find yourself distanced from her and in a relentless grind of caring for small children with your lover preoccupied and in many ways distant. That's shit. It's hard and depressing and you're human to be distressed by it. There is, IMO, no grounds to beat yourself up and think your feelings are anything more than normal - as normal as your wife's.

I think it isn't the sex that I found too much when DS was smaller. It was the intimacy. I just wanted space and peace and to be left alone, without any emotional demands. Sex with my husband, even quickies, is emotional. That's the great thing about it, of course - but when my son was really little I just didn't have anything left in the tank.

I am a bit bothered, given your youngest is now two, that your wife is still so much in a baby cocoon. I don't think it's healthy to be so opposed to time spent as herself/a wife. Not sexual time, just dinners out alone and movies now and then and the odd weekend away. Bluntly, she is doing her kids no favours by threatening an otherwise very happy parental relationship. It is hard - mothering is an endless process of incremental detachment - but I think you need to be solid on the need for counselling, because as you've identified you are at the point you can't take much more, and also because you don't know how she feels or what she wants and as you aren't communicating well you need professional help to kickstart that process. Without communication, a marriage is, eventually, fucked. Neither of you wants to turn around one day and find the kids have left home and you're married to strangers.

I don't think you're anything other than a good person in a hard but very normal situation. But the reality is you can't take a lot more and therefore you need to start taking steps to re-establish that bond with your wife. You can't know if she is like me and so many others (just went off intimacy when kids were tiny) or like other posters, and it's personal to you/her and the new status quo, unless you start to talk. And explaining to her that you are feeling very lonely now in this marriage, and that sex is just a part of that (because if you don't have a clue how the other feels, you're fairly estranged emotionally, aren't you) but that you love her and want to right the ship and feel counselling would strengthen and reignite things... I think you need to level with her that you are now deeply unhappy. Surely she, you and the kids deserve that much, rather than you deciding unilaterally to walk away without making serious efforts to fix things?

Maybe you could sit down and write out what you would like/need to improve things in the short term. NOT "more sex" but maybe a guaranteed afternoon (night, and if yours sleep badly you're on a losing wicket there!) together every week away from the house and kids... and maybe your 2 year old needs to start preschool sooner rather than later. Obviously those suggestions will take money, but if you can comfortably fund 2 households it doesn't sound like that's an issue. I would also think about saying you want a weekend away together every couple of months. You say she is totally wrapped up in the kids, and really that's a good thing - but not if it excludes you. Bluntly you are also a member of the family and not just the provider. While the children obviously must come first, you don't need to come nowhere. And one afternoon a week plus 1 night every 8 weeks isn't asking for the moon on a stick. It's asking that the family unit be protected - that unit being the two of you plus kids. She's not child-centred if their father is sacrificed to the point they lose him from their day-to-day lives. Especially as, in my case at least, Daddy has become increasingly essential with every month that passes as the baby cocoon of mummy/infant recedes.

Childbirth is normal and yet it hurts like hell too! So is death, as far as I'm aware in most cases. Saying "this is normal" is not saying "you have no right to be deeply hurt and worried". It's saying "there is hope!"

Again, good luck.

MrsMimk - X post. I think the OP needs to see things from his wife's perspective, but his wife also needs to see them from his. And things need to change, that much is clear.

I don't think there are any villains here. I think life can be hellish at times for us all, hopefully it's a phase, but either way they need to find a way to communicate with considerably more effectiveness than is happening right now.

Your children are so young, I think you are being a bit impatient expecting her to spring back to her former self. If you are parenting properly, it takes a lot out of you.

A couple of years after your youngest child goes back to school you may notice a real difference in your wife - you sound as though you are not prepared to wait that long though.

I notice she is a wife, not just a partner, and I'm wondering about marriage vows. If she had been injured in an accident and unable to have sex, would you still have the same approach that you do now? It's sounding a little as though your vows should have read 'for better or worse, provided I get a regular shag ....'.

I think its actually covered by the vow "with my body i thee worship" Xollob.

No one has the right to make someone have sex they dont want though.

Well in fact the marriage vows do say "to have and to hold", that doesn't mean a handful of times in 4 years.

Oh yes, forgot those bits!

Just checking in.

Perfectstorm - thanks for the comprehensive reply
Don't have time to reply fully, but wanted to register myappreciation!

Xollob - The injured scenario is different to one made through choice. Not sure they are comparable. Even so I don't know how I'd react to those circumstances. Do any of us without going through it?

Impatient? Maybe. The last few years haven't been the happiest. Regular shag? What's that then???

But it might not be made by choice Keepithidden - It's not just a case of passing something the size of a watermelon out through your bits and resuming life as normal. There are massive emotional changes for a woman, combined with massive hormonal changes to boot. There is something self preservative about it too - at some level she is probably associating sex with reproduction and may not feel she could adequately care for another child at the moment.

Let's do a little experiment - for the next month, make sure you only sleep for ten minutes at a time- set the alarm, rake up whatever emotionally charged situations you have ever experienced when you are particularly tired, make sure you have absolutely no time for yourself, leave all your meals and drinks at least 75% untouched. At the end of the month run a couple of marathons (without training) and then see if you fancy long drawn out sex with your wife. This will be a tiny, tiny insight into the last five years for your wife as you will be missing out the pregnancy, anaemia, birth, hormones etc. Come back and let us know how you get on.

I'm not defending your wife as such - just trying to show how some people find early days with children. You sound as though you have made up your mind though - you don't need our permission on here.

There is an entertaining reverse thread on here at the moment OP, about a husband who is not doing his duty - go check out what all the advice for the woman in your position is. My favourite is tat she should tell her reluctant party he has to do his duty twice weekly or else :)

xollob it is not that early. if by the time your youngest child is two, you are still up every ten minutes and not finishing any meals ever then something needs to change. there has to be some balance between parenting and living.
and if the parenting is that exhausting then it is for the OP too. he is also there and also sharing the childcare.

Fair enough if you were talking the bf phase. no sleep etc. but this is two years down the line. things should be getting easier.

Yes parenting is hard but then again the majority of women around the world give birth at the majority of men have dcs. the world does not stop. Things change but it is mother the end of everything.

I didn't mean literally that a parent would be doing that MrsMink I was trying to condense it a bit for him into a month!

He is a parent!

MrsMink are you deliberately being dim? Jeez ... Let me explain again. I know he's a parent. I was saying to him that it would be hard to replicate what his wife had possibly been through. An interesting experiment would to be go through those things for a month. That would be like a compressed mini-version of what she has been through. I know, at two, a child would not (hopefully) be waking every ten minutes - but if he did that for a month, that would be an insight into sleep deprivation. Got it?

Lazeyjaney, if you're talking about the thread where a bloke is online gaming every second he's able and going without sleep to do it, and the relationship is dead in consequence, I don't think the situations are comparable. The one is totally self-centred and neglectful of the family in preference to a fantasy world, the other is down to unavoidable real life demands that haven't yet receded. Your own male bias is showing if you really think that obsessive computer gaming is comparable in any way, in terms of culpability and choice element, to the demands of babies and toddlers. In fact I would say that selecting that comparison says more about you than anything else - I would have pointed to the thread where a woman is devastated her husband has an OW, where she was bluntly told that a marriage without sex for 3 years with no intention or desire on her part to alter that is no marriage, and she is hard placed to blame him. That's a fairer snapshot, frankly.

Though I would agree that trying to sort the situation out would always work better than ultimatums (not seen that thread past the first few comments). That's no way to run any relationship, IMO.

Lazyjaney the guy in the thread I think you are talking about spends his time gaming till the small hours and watching "nasty" internet porn. Hardly equivalent to being knackered and drained caring for small children.

I've skim read this thread so apologies if I have missed a lot of stuff out and have got the wrong end of the stick but am I right in saying the OP loves his wife and wants things to work with her but due to the lack of sex (of which there is no real explanation yet from his DW as she doesn't appear to want to discuss the matter) he is prepared to walk away, divorce and start again at some point?

If that's too simplistic I am sorry.

OP I guess you have written your "D"W a letter and told her how you feel and what your needs are? In the same letter you have emphasised how much she means to you and how much you actually want the relationship to work and how happy you want her to be. Guessing you have also stated that couples counselling would be a place to start to rebuild the relationship and not as a precursor to splitting up? Also guessing you have stated that you understand that having young children to care for will have a negative effect upon her libido but you are willing to work with her.

If you haven't then that is that surely the place to begin?

It sounds like communication isn't great in this household and instead of pouring it all out on here the OP needs to find a way to talk (even if it's begun by a letter) to his wife and establish what is going on in her mind and then find a way to move forward either separately or as a couple.

However, if this has already been said I apologise as I have skimmed through the whole thread quickly.

perfectstorm would you mind pming me this thread when you have a min.
Ive looked but i cant work out which one it is Thanks.

I would have pointed to the thread where a woman is devastated her husband has an OW, where she was bluntly told that a marriage without sex for 3 years with no intention or desire on her part to alter that is no marriage, and she is hard placed to blame him. That's a fairer snapshot, frankly.

I think you need to go through basic steps and arrange couples counselling. Tell her when the appointment is and arrange sitters so that she is free. If you still love your wife, you need to help her through this blip. Having young kids is totally wearing and I like many if my friends loose ourselves a little. Sex often temporarily takes a lower priority.

Darkest it was a month ago I think? I'll have a good look for you when I have the chance as I do understand why you'd like to see it. She didn't want a split because they were best friends, but didn't want more. The OW was horrified by the situation (her as OW) and trying to do the right thing and so was the H, and as far as I recall OP admitted in an ideal scenario she and her DH would be co-parents and best friends, but she didn't want him as more. It was all rather heartbreaking tbh.

Retro I completely agree - counselling is the best way forward here.

OP I so hope, for everyone's sake, that she's just stuck in the baby rut and sunlight will dawn for you all soon. Once more, good luck.

I just wanted to add a comment, and not that I am experienced in this at all but just as an outsider looking in (albeit on a small part of a big story, I imagine).

Although the sex is, of course, a big dynamic of this disharmony within the relationship, I should imagine the lack of sex or guilt over pursuing sex is a side effect of another factor. The factor may be depression. It may be your DW does not feel attractive in herself no matter what you say to the contrary. It could be deep rooted reasons that have existed for years, or have only sprung up since childbirth. Obviously it's not clear otherwise they would have been addressed.

Because of the possibility of other factors, making the split or potential for splitting with the inference of sex being "the" issue (or even a fairly big issue) is only going to make the whole process of sexual relationships for your DW in future (either rekindling with yourself or others) so much harder to deal with. I'm not speaking for your wife because I don't know her, much less assume that all women are the same, but sex can have many emotional attachments, especially if you've had children. Making the cause of the parting either about sex wholly or significantly will discredit you in a way you probably do not deserve to be; sex is of course a very important component of a functional relationship for most people and we are entitled to our needs, but bear in mind a lot may view it harshly.

Personally, the fear of the relationship splitting over a sexual incompatibility, even if it has been a short term problem would probably exacerbate the fear of consummation and would lead to resentment and negativity from pressure. If someone pressures me to do something, I end up fearing it more than if I had been left alone to figure it out myself in my own time; if that makes any sense.

@perfectstorm & lizzabadger I suggested some way upthread that the OP read all the reverse threads, as I do think some posters are giving him a hard time here, they write as if the kids are 2 and 4 months old, not years. As someone else said upthread, at their ages it's not that hard to find 30 minutes every week or so.

No one reverse thread is exactly the same, but taken as a whole the advice on reverse threads is typically far kinder to the woman not getting any IMO, and typically far more brusque on the non performing male, and I think the OP should read them too for balance.

I also said upthread that another throw at joint counseling and communication are the next steps, and only if that doesn't work should he go for further separation. But given that hasn't succeeded so far though, I think it's unlikely to work again.

I did like the idea of the bloke being told he had to perform twice a week or else, and IMO at some point the OP here is going to have to spell out what he needs too.

xollob of course i am not bring deliberately dim are you being deliberately patronising? The emotional fall out of giving birth may be hard to comprehend the physical demands are not especially difficult to imagine if you have been there, which he was/is. he doesn't need you to lay him out an imaginary obstacle course for a month.

"I did like the idea of the bloke being told he had to perform twice a week or else"

Words fail me.

To expand on the above now my jaw is back off the floor:

1. It is not OK to threaten people into having sex with you under any circumstances
2. I have no idea why anyone would want to do this to someone they love, above all people
3. I have no idea how anyone could enjoy having sex with someone who had been coerced into it.