DW - She's just not that in to me.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, back again for more useful advice from the nest of vipers! I had a previous thread on here whinging about my lack of sex life with DW and got a vast amount of very useful advice from a range of viewpoints. As ever in these situations it’s taken me a few months to process and take heed of that advice (and read all the recommended literature), but now I have I’m back for more.

So, quick potted history. DW and me been married five years, together before that for five. Two DCs ages 2 and 4. Limited sex life since DCs came along so thought I’d come here for advice a few months back. Made an effort to be more appreciative, attentive and physically affectionate (without pressure for anything more) and was happy for a time. DTD a couple of times at DWs instigation, got knocked back a few times and have realised that it was basically pity sex and I feel a bit sh*t now.

I have tried to talk about it a few times but without much success DW is quite reserved and when I suggested counselling last time I broached the subject it ended in tears, she said she didn’t want to lose me and assumed counselling was a precursor to divorce. Looking back I think she may have been thinking about the impacts of a split, rather than losing me personally, I’m confident I can support her and DCs and live elsewhere though so I don’t think that’ll be an issue.

Anyway, all this means I think she probably doesn’t see me as a romantic prospect anymore, we still get on well, good friends even affectionate with hugs and kisses, but sex feels forced and lonely (for me anyway). She deserves better and I’m not happy with the status quo, so I reckon we’ll be heading for a split soon. I don't see why this can’t be amicable and why co-parenting can’t work out well, but I still love her, I still want her as my wife and I want to try and emotionally detach myself from these feelings to enable the split to be amicable and with as little pain as possible. Any words of wisdom/advice/experiences of similar would be welcome.

I agree Madasabox - I think it's key.

Either she fears it will lead to sex, or she has significant issues with her body now, or both.

Keepithidden I wish I could put you in touch with my DH. What you are describing is very much the same as what I went through with DH.

Three DCs, 8, 4 and 17 mths - sex was non-existent. It wasn't him, it was me, definitely me. It wasn't until I went to my GP that I realised how depressed I was, I felt so low and alone, and generally unhappy. GP prescribed antidepressants, and literally within a week things were much better.

My DH actually made an appt with the GP to thank her for getting his wife back.

I'd say we now have sex 2-3 times a week instead of before when it was once every 2-3 months if he was lucky.

We've also made much ore of an effort to get some alone time, some time for us to be us, not mummy and daddy.

We have a relate counsellor who is fantastic and makes us both see things from different points of view. For us, relate was a last chance saloon, thinking it would precede divorce, but actually it's made us face our issues and communicate them effectively.

We've been together for 13.5 years, married for 6.5 and have three DCs, I honestly thought it was the end, but we are both working so hard to make sure it isn't.

Hoping you can work it out, you sound very much like my DH, a thoroughly decent guy who wants the best for his family.

Bump, no he would be devastated. Everything else is great. I wish I could turn my libido for him on, or his off!

Maybe there is no underlying sex drive that people (or rather women) revert to post childbirth...

I have a strong underlying sex drive, it came back in full force. A lot of women on MN have over the years reassured women with very small kids that that's the norm, so I doubt I'm alone. Yet you seem almost not to want to hear it - forgive me if I'm wrong here, but you are saying that she is either okay with no sex, or has such low self esteem after the changes to her body/birth traumas that she has issues you can't help her with. You aren't hearing that she may well just be in a time of her life when she isn't that interested in sex because the small people you both created together still treat her body as their own property. That is a very finite, very fleeting stage of life, in the overall scheme of things.

Obviously people vary, and of course there's nothing "wrong" with someone who feels asexual after children... but you have so many women here telling you the emotional and physical demands of small children left them with no resources for any physical relationship with anyone else, and then they rediscovered their sexual mojo when the kids were a tiny bit older. I do appreciate that you are very upset by how things are and that you've been upset a while, but I do think it's telling that when you are given a range of views, you ignore the one that indicate things may not be as catastrophic as you thought, and which don't give you, perhaps, the out you are seeking - I realise that may be my own perception, and mistaken, but from your words I can't help wondering... do you, if you are brutally honest, actually want to leave at this point? Are you looking for validation of that decision? It's understandable if you have just had enough, but perhaps you might want to think about whether it's fair to blame her for a life stage many, many women identify with, as justifying your decision. If the ebbing of the physical intimacy has in turn killed your own desire to rediscover that with her when she's ready, that is understandable, but you are in turn then perhaps the one who isn't capable of dealing with a very normal life stage as young parents, rather than the rejected party in a sexless marriage.

There are people - men and women - who have posted on MN about sexless relationships that have no rhyme or reason, and which upset them greatly, and I honestly think they need to talk to their spouses about the possibility of an open relationship or to leave for their own sanity. That's a basic mismatch of libido. What saddens me is that you may well be walking away when in a year or so things would be even better than before - she'd be out of that baby tunnel, and you could rediscover one another. I just don't see that you are in the position I've seen many, many other posters describe, where leaving is a sane and honest response to the personally, subjectively unendurable. That doesn't mean you don't have every right to leave a relationship that is not making you happy - we all get only one life - but realistically, I don't think sex is a fair reason, when you have such young children in the picture. And counselling and time alone together would be well worth at least trying, first, if you otherwise think there is something to salvage.

^ Is a sexless marriage (by the usual definition

Keepithidden, maybe it does just boil down to compatability, that people changes, needs and wants change and maybe in some ways, moreso for women? Children are all consuming and for me, i cannot see beyond that and how im feeling right now. Im not breastfeeding at the moment btw but yes that affects things too.

Why dont i say what ive just said to you, earlier, to dp? Good question. I probably will but for now things are ticking along. We're not as far along as you and we havnt tried this or that yet as im currently pregnant but if things continue after the birth the way they have been i feel we will be having an honest talk, its only fair on dp but i dread what that could mean for our family, the kids, the future.

Pdfan- i see the similarities between your dw and i and it pains me to see my dp following the same path as you as you seem to resigned. I wouldnt want him to just give up and accept as it seems you have. He, and you deserve to be happy and fulfilled. I think i would prefer it if he found someone else to give him what he wants and for us to go our separate ways then live a half life.

Notbroken- i dont know if i desire other men, i dont think i do, nobody has caught my interest so i think its just me, not dp. If i had desire for other men i would think the issue was with dp but i dont. I just dont want sex. Or for that matter intimacy, hugs, kisses or touching.

Keepithidden I think it is too soon to give up on your wife. I am usually really gung ho about the potential to separate but I think it is too soon.
I remember your last thread on this and I am going to say this in the context of (my perhaps imperfect) memories of that too.

You ARE thinking of leaving her because you are not sexually satisfied. No matter how you dress it up, this puts pressure on her. It makes her feel a need to perform. And then you blame her for artificiality in your sex life. What on earth do you expect?

She cried because she thought you were thinking of leaving her (which you are). It is hard for her to express her feelings but this was unmistakable.

She is fearful of expressing her feelings in general and of counselling in particular. I would suggest that she feels a need to appear in good emotional and pychological shape for you and her fears, anxieties, sadnesses will put you off and you will be talking about leaving again. She is hoping that putting a brave face on things and not sharing the messy reality of her struggles will buy her time to fix herself up, fix up the relationship, and persuade you to stay. She is struggling with intimacy with you. You perceive this of course and see this as something lacking in your life, but there is another side to this.

Having children is like a bombshell for some women. With a two-year-old this is far too soon to be drumming your fingers about getting back to normal. Seriously. My youngest is two and a half and I have been on the verge of tears all day from pelvic pain that is left over from my pregnancies. that is without going anywhere near all the psychological and emotional stuff. You sound pretty glib to me. You sound like you pay lip service to the notion that all this goes on but don't really emotionally understand that your wife may feel as if she is struggling for personal survival. That might sound over dramatic, maybe it is, but not for some women - for some women it is a statement of fact. Read the "parenthood affecting mental health" threads on "parenting". (I seem to remember someone said that before actually on your last thread)

I think there is a slightly complacent tone to your posts that doesn't take into account that she has (perhaps) been through hell and you have not. Consider her a shell-shocked disabled war veteran. Consider yourself, for a moment, as someone standing over the wheelchair of a person back from Vietnam two years ago, and saying "I know it's hard for you to get out and about but I really miss the part of our relationship that was dancing at parties. When will you be dancing again? But not just to please me. you have to LOVE the dancing." I think treating someone like that might result in a slight loss of authenticity of communication in a relationship. Maybe

OK I have just guessed all that and it might be wrong. I freely admit I am projecting. But I am feeling pretty defective at the moment, am not taking great care of my relationship. I desperately hope I have time to sort this out, that I can get some energy back and fix things before it is too late. If my partner leaves me I will be devastated. If he does, I don't think he gave us enough time.

If you want to leave, do. It's a free country. But imo this is far too soon to position taking that step as formally dissolving a marriage that is already over. I see it as you actively closing down a relationship with potential because it is not meeting your desires right now.

I haven't read the other thread but one or two things spring to mind
Have you had any nights away without the children? IMO even one night away with a chance to talk without distraction of children makes a huge difference. There has to be no pressure for sex then of course, but just a chance to communicate.
I come from a family who talks about everything. DH's family don't. The phrase "I'm not a mind reader" cropped up often early in our relationship, and still does occasionally. I found that putting my thoughts in writing for DH to read and digest helps hugely.
Please, please do this quiz and get your wife to do it
www.5lovelanguages.com/
When we hit a bad patch we did this and realised DH and I express our love for each other in totally different ways, and this had a huge impact on our perception of what we thought of each other. DHs love language is "acts of service" whereas I couldn't care less how much he did for me as mine is "quality time" . We now make the effort to communicate in each other's love language- not always easy, but always worth it.

I agree with perfectstorm and ZutAlors. 10 times a year for a couple of years when your DC are little is normal IMO.

And for some 10x a year continues to be normal. Quality not quantity...

TheBreastmilksOnMe - You're right. I'm completely resigned to it now. My sex life these days consists of secretly looking at porn now and then on my own.
I felt so lucky and proud at the time to be marrying someone quite a bit younger than me... little did I know how things would turn out..... so I've been given my comeuppance, I suppose!
I haven't the energy or drive to do anything about it now. It's all too late. I've made my bed...
I love her and we get on well together otherwise, but somehow I feel quite lonely in my marriage. Maybe I'd just like to talk to another woman by email or something, someone somewhere - is this what they'd call looking for an EA? But on the other hand, what's the point? It would lead nowhere. Easier just to do nothing and get on with the rest of my life.

Every day is a school day on MN.

Perfectstorm and Zutalors - You've probably nailed my lack of sympathy/empathy with your posts. Not sure what else to say. Thank you.

This is as good as it gets. For now.

Need a bit of time to think. Back soon.

Yep, you are getting a lot of good and consistent advice here OP. I too feel you are looking for a reason to check out of your marriage - much too soon in my opinion. I don't know where the 10 times a year stat comes from, but my guess is that absolutely loads of couples with 2 very young children would fall into that category. Add to that the traumatic birth and the fact that she has actually initiated sex and it really doesn't look so bad.

So what you are saying is that you are willing to give up on your marriage - with all that that means for you, your wife and the children - because of an entirely predictable and very common problem that many of us here have resolved with time and talking. That is your choice of course but it seems very sad.....

Not broken... Do you get horny at a particular time of the month, or are you on the pill?

Pdfan- i really feel that you should look to find your own happiness. What a waste of a life. I dont mean an EA as that is a cowardly way out, nasty endings. You are entitled to live a happy, fulfilled life and only you can make sure it turns out that way. Free yoursel, and your dw to find real fulfillment. Dont waste away your precious years. (Its easier to give advice then to take it but my situation is a bit different from yours now. Who's to say it wont end up like it though?) If i were you i would get out and start living again.

Bump, I'm not on the pill, was sterilised about 10 years ago, I'm 44. I have no body confidence issues, quite the opposite in fact. Yes I get horny, not just at certain times of the month, can be any time. I suppose I have got in the rut of not doing it except out of duty so now I don't want to at all - with him. We have been together 17 years.

Marriages always change when children come along and sex often falls the by way side. It's natural. Small children are exhausting and they require a huge amount of attention.
I'm using huge generalisations here but I think women, more than men, need a sense of intimacy and closeness to enjoy sex. And that's not just sexual intimacy but the type that comes from enjoying the other's company and spending time together. Physical sex alone isn't always enough. If you then add the pressure of knowing that you're not having sex, and the OH is unhappy, it just makes it more stressful and can end up in a vicious circle.
It is really hard to find couple time when you have young children. Really hard.
I think you need to try and get that 'couple' feeling back before worrying about getting back to your pre-children sex life. You say you still love her. Tell her that.
If you are able to get a babysitter, then do so and go out and do something nice just the two of you and be adults instead of just parents, as often as you can afford it.
If you don't have a babysitter, then I suggest a 'home date' on the weekend after the children are in bed. Maybe just making something nice for dinner (just the two of you) with some wine and snuggle up to a movie (without any expectation of sex at first). It may go a way towards recouping the closeness you had before. I suspect that may go a long way towards rebuilding your relationship and your sex life.
Marriages can be hard work, especially in the first few years after children come along. It is normal and it will probably get better, but you will both need to work at finding the intimacy that came naturally beforehand.

Agree with Zutalors excellent post.

Well, after a rather shameful and embarrassing drop back to reality I guess my expectations have been too much, it's odd how on other threads expectations are so different to those aired by posters on (the latter part) of this one. I suppose the circumstances in this case (small DCs and associated traumas) are very different though. Zutalors your and perfectstorms posts were very well written and explained my flaws (and the errors in my thinking)

It's also shameful seeing how bad other posters relationships are and how unhappy their lives are particularly when there is no obvious way out. I feely lucky not to be in many of their shoes.

As well as all this I suppose I have been feeling "entitled" too, it's scary how deep the roots of male privelidge go, and how selfish my own attitude is.

Madasabox and Twinkle - She has had body confidence (and confidence issues full stop) prior to DCs, they are worse now. I cannot make her realise she is attractive physically and mentally. I guess part of why I'm having these issues is that I don't feel as if my opinion counts.

I'm quite surprised that so few people have taken issue with the female posters on here who feel they don't want to have a sexual relationship with their H ever again. I have suspected this is the case with DW, and I would want her to be honest with me about it too. On a personal level I can't see myself happy in a long term relationship/marriage without sex although I'm sure it happens with both parties being happy.

Lastofhtepodpeople - RE: Couple time: This was mentioned on my last thread, again it's something I've suggested, but DCs come first and I suppose DW is veering towards the Mummy Martyr stereotype that crops up occassionally on here. Personally, I think she needs to rediscover herself as a person before working on anything else (including her relationship with me or future partners), but my efforts to encourage her to go out with friends, take up new interests and all the other valuable suggestions from the last thread falls on deaf ears.

Don't feel embarrassed keepit. You asked for advice in the knowledge you didn't have all the answers and then you reflected on the advice given. That's good isn't it?

One key fact here is you cannot 'make her' realise she is attractive or make her see she needs to go out more. All you can do is create a safe and unthreatening environment where she knows you are not going to abandon her just because things aren't great. You are married to her and there will be peaks and troughs in any marriage. Let her adapt to all the impossible demands of this phase in the way she wants - and show her that you don't judge her. She is not lacking in any way.

Be patient, please do get counselling and please try not to think her thoughts for her! My dh said mournfully in our last session "I can see we are never going to have a physical relationship again". I was astonished tbh - I saw the lack of sex as a symptom of issues that would be resolved. Fast forward and it looks like our own sexual relationship is on the mend. I would never have been happy with a sexless marriage but he thought that was our future.

Be patient (difficult when you feel unloved and worried I know...)

"Veering towards the Mummy Martyr stereotype"

"Needs to rediscover herself"

Maybe quit thinking you know what's best for her.

She knows what's best for her.

You are not a superior being to her (although for me it comes across in your posts slightly that you think you are - sorry to be blunt and apologies if I am wrong).

Fascinating that so many posts with the same point of view appear all at once, and seem to know so many just like themselves.

The thread I originally mentioned gives a bigger picture OP.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/a1822534-when-did-you-start-having-sex-after-you-had-dc

Also with these latter posts seems there are clearly as many reasons for not wanting sex as there are posters, and what would help for one wouldn't for another, but you'll just never know if your DW won't communicate or go to counselling with you.

I therefore think the earlier advice on here was more balanced, may also be useful to read the reverse posts on MN as then you'll get the real views women have about no sex in a marriage :)

although for me it comes across in your posts slightly that you think you are - sorry to be blunt and apologies if I am wrong

Nope you're not wrong, I often come across as a bit of tw*t in RL too.

Lazy - I'll check that thread out later thanks for the link. Also, what/where are the "reverse posts"?

I'm quite surprised that so few people have taken issue with the female posters on here who feel they don't want to have a sexual relationship with their H ever again. I have suspected this is the case with DW, and I would want her to be honest with me about it too

You are so jumping the gun here. Still. You don't know how she will feel about sex in two, or five, or ten or twenty years. I doubt very much that your DW does either. You are either in your marriage for the long haul, not bailing out a couple of years after your youngest child is born, or you are not.

You do come across as entitled. You speak of understanding for the potential issues she may have following pregnancy and childbirth, yet I think you are paying lip service to it.

A perfect example of this is your "Mummy Martyr" comment. She is clearly not yet ready to go out with friends regularly or take up new interests yet. She has a new and exhausting interest already - your DC. Why would she want further demands on her? Ease off trying to turn her into what you want her to be.

You have created this nest of family/children between you. I assume you were happy to do that. You seem capable of reading about things, of researching. Were you really not aware that your DW may go into nurturing children mode for a few years after having children?

It may be that the OP's wife would ultimately benefit from joining clubs and having interests etc but if she doesn't feel up to it then dragging herself around to things she doesn't enjoy won't make her feel better, just more of a failure. More on the list of things she should be doing that make her feel like shit.

Also the "mummy martyr stereotpye" - ffs. That is so insulting, rolling your eyes at someone being exhausted and frazzled with childcare. They are exhausted because all that shit needs to be done. ffs. I think you get off on seeing yourself as uber-reasonable but there is an undertone of superiority and impatience to all this that is really rubbing me up the wrong way.

I say it again - leave if you want, but be very clear that if you do, you are just one of those men who got bored and frustrated with not getting everything you want from a young, romantic, energetic woman and decide to move on. Nothing noble about it.

Lazeyjaney, what exactly are you getting at? What is more "balanced" about some indvidual view points than others? are you hinting at anything more (what does "fascinating" mean?) than that you don't agree with the second half of the thread, and identify more with the first?