Where now?

[OvertiredandConfused]

I've posted before, particularly in the "Not bad enough to leave, not good enough to stay" thread.

Feel like I have to do something to break the cycle that we're in but I just don't know where to start. Sorry if this is long but don't want to drip feed.

Married nearly 15 years, together 17 plus. DD12 and DS10. Both of us work full-time with an almost 2 hour commute each way every day. DH is a decent man. We share many common interests and he is a hands on dad - although finds the sorting sports kit, chasing school, making packed lunches etc less enthralling can't really blame him, just wish we could both be like that He really doesn't do the whole housework / laundry /ironing thing though and that drives me mad. He does clear up after the majority of meals (which I always prepare).

Last few years have been tough. I've been back at work for coming up to six months after two years at home. I took the time out because our family and my health was all falling apart with trying to juggle everything. During that time home life was on a fairly even keel although our relationship began to suffer after the first 12 months due, I thought, to the financial pressures.

I came back to work because we are up to our eyes in debt. Jointly accrued and DH pays more than me to joint expenses although I've been the one physically taking charge of the state of our finances, talking to the bank the most etc. I did try to get a local job but just couldn't - I got turned down for endless more junior jobs because I was over-qualified but got a "big" job relatively quickly when I started looking. DH still earns more than me because he works in the city and I work in the third sector.

My job is okay, but not great. I need to put in the hours and be on the ball at the moment as I'm working towards doing a day a week at home so I need to establish credibility.

We currently have no proper childcare arrangements but will have from 1 October. My parents are picking up much of the slack - taking DS to school, collecting both and looking after them til I get home. This makes life at home very stressful for us all as we need to drop DC at my parents before we catch a 7.30am train.

DH is just miserable and angry all the time. He seems to resent that his life has turned out like this. He won't talk about how he feels but regularly tells me that I have no idea what he thinks or how he feels. He's always been a loud person who will flare up then calm down and move on - but never in an aggressive way and certainly not abusive or directed at me or DC.

Recently though he shouts a lot. At anything that irritates him at all. This morning he screamed at me and DS in a way that is simply not acceptable and which I think crossed the line to be abusive. DS was being irritatingly slow, but not badly behaved IYSWIM. I told him that. After we had dropped DC I asked again what was the matter and said that his recent behaviour can't continue. So, he said he would never again display any emotion or ever get annoyed with DC no matter how badly they behave.

I just stopped talking, I couldn't find the energy to keep trying to engage. We travelled separately on the train and I felt no desire to find him or make up this morning (very unusual for me).

Our sex life is non-existent. In the last few months kisses, hand-holding etc has also virtually stopped. He spends his evenings watching TV whilst I race round holding the house together then go to bed. If I ask for help he rarely responds - he's tired / had a long day / will in a minute etc, etc. Despite being knackered, I often can't sleep and end up reading to try and fall asleep.

I still can't imagine a future without him but, for the first time this morning I find myself really thinking about what it would be like and how I'd manage if we separated. I do still love him, but I don't like him at the moment and I'm not sure whether I can get back from that.

Thanks for getting this far. Please give me some wise words MN.

Anyone?

Hi,

I just wanted to let you know I had read your post. I'm not very wise I am afraid. I have many similar issues, just a few years and one DC behind. Also you are different to me in terms of still being able to say you love him, that counts for something I think.

I Know how impossible it is to resolve issues when the other person won't engage. Maybe tell him that it's all at stake now. You are starting to question the future and he really needs to take his head out of the sand now. And if he won't, there's not much you can do. You can't keep flogging a dead horse.

it sounds like you work really hard, you deserve way more respect. It's pretty soul destroying slogging your guts out while there is someone sat on his arse who won't even have an honest conversation with you

I can relate to much of what you've said. My h acts in a very similar way. Unfortunately I've reached the end of the line and we've decided to separate.

Have you spoken to him properly about how you feel? We both recognised that things weren't right about 5 yrs ago & went to Relate but it never got any better.

Maybe it's time to take action & think about the alternative?

Thinking of you.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I sympathise.

I think you're taking out the stress on each other not because there is anything desperately wrong with your marriage but because that's the only escape valve open to each of you.

Your DH just sounds horribly, horribly stressed. A one-off incident like that doesn't form part of a pattern of abusive behaviour, but it is a warning shot that you need to do something about your lives. Everyone has a breaking point, and your DH sounds perilously close to his.

It sounds as though financial pressures are at the root of this. You are both pushing yourselves too hard to bring in the income necessary to maintain your standard of living and service your debts. I know it's an awful lot easier said than done, but I would look at ways to reduce your standard of living and reduce your debts. Neither are worth your physical health, mental health, or your marriage.

First things first, please go to see a debt counsellor. You can arrange this through the CAB. There is no need for anyone today to have to pay out debts in such a way that their daily lives are suffering. You may be able to get some of your debts written off completely, but if you don't want to go down that route, you can arrange longer-term repayment schemes that will increase the amount of money you have to play with each month.

If you want a less stressful job, leave off some of your qualifications on your CV and tailor your resume to make you sound more appropriate for the roles you are applying for. Alternatively, if your DH is horribly stressed, he could consider doing the same. He should be aware that if he does that though it may mean an increase in his domestic workload.

You could consider downsizing to reduce housing costs, although you'd have to balance that against commuting costs, etc. It would work best if you could both get more local, lesser paid jobs in cheaper area though. It's also a huge change, the prospect of which could simply add to your stress levels right now, so you may not want to even consider it.

Another alternative would be letting out a spare room, or getting DC to share for a 6-12 month period so you could get a lodger - all ways of increasing your income.

In the meantime, to manage the actual stress levels, you both need to find a way of letting off steam individually. Exercise is great for this, as it really allows you to work off frustration and a healthy body is far better equipped to deal with stress hormones effectively. But it doesn't have to be. Don't use alcohol though, as that will lower your ability to deal with stress. Then you need to find ways to support each other rather than fall into the competitive misery trap of who has it harder. Make a point of spending 5 minutes each day to listen to the other and sympathise (even if inside you're thinking STFU, you have no idea). Try to have one evening a week at least where TV is off, overhead lights are banned and candles/lamps are on, where you talk or play a game. Grab an M&S dine-in meal for two. Simple things that make you focus on each other and pleasurable.

Good luck.

I agree with Licketysplit. I think that somehow, you have to get across to him how you feel and he has to listen. Easier said than done, of course. I'm sure you'll get advice here. I feel for you.

Working. Will reply soon.

Thank you.

Dahlen I get frustrated with OPs who get great advice and say "I can't" but I fear I may be about to do the same.

Our debt is now sensibly managed and we have some spare cash each month. We've done all the easy lifestyle changes and would be looking at moving house, stopping DC's activities etc to do more. Always an option, but something I'd like t avoid and I think we can.

Underselling myself isn't an option - I did try. My last two jobs were as Chief Executive and there are loads of google results for me under my real name.

In terms of moving, you're right that would be too difficult sadly. Not only DC schools but whole network of family and support. At the moment, having great friends and family who live close by is the only thing holding me together and plugging the gaps.

I'm sure we are both stressed - and I'm not wanting to just blame DH here. But I am trying my best to communicate and make it a joint problem, one we solve together. He doesn't seem to want to do that. I don't know how to get him to take it seriously.

I do like the idea of listening to each other for 5 minutes every day. Not sure I can persuade him to try, but I will. And I think I need to re-look at the jobs I do at home and re-prioritise. If I can't do everything, maybe I should leave the ones that impact him more and make it his problem too, or is that just vindictive?

As an immediate form of relief, would any of that spare cash be available to pay for a cleaner?

If you need to rework the domestic balance, try reading Wifework. You certainly wouldn't be the first high-flying career woman who can delegate supremely at work but can't get her DH to unload the dishwasher. This is a great book for helping you to understand why that is and how you can put your POV across in a way that encourages good men to listen. I don't think it's at all vindictive to leave tasks that benefit him alone/more. You are not superwoman, and nothing inspires change like consequences.

From what you've said, things aren't bad enough financially to make you consider change, so the real problem is your communication. I'd really concentrate on that. Push every method you can of reconnecting, but at the same time you need to make it clear that you will not tolerate being spoken to like a domestic servant or emotional punching bag.

Bear in mind though that unless he faces a consequence more unpleasant than his current situation, or a reward that makes it worth him putting in more effort, he is unlikely to want to change. To that end, you may have to decide what your ultimate line in the sand is.

Your lives just sound so stressful that it isn't a surprise that you're tired and less than capable of giving your relationship what it needs.

I like to write things down so put down a list of household jobs and kid related jobs that need to be done. If you're both out of the house for an equal length of time then your division of labour should be equal. Managing finances is a job too.

If you can afford a cleaner every week then I would do that - presumably you're earning more by taking your big job so could the difference help in this regard.

Making time for one another can make this work. Trying to eat your dinner together and cuddling on the sofa when your jobs are done would probably make a difference.

I hope you find a solution.

We used to sit together and watch TV - I'd watch stuff I don't really like if we were cuddled up - but now I prefers to sit in a chair by himself, away from me and closer to the TV . I need to try and get that back don't I?

Yeah you do. Putting the lap tops and smart phones down and just having a cuddle makes a difference. I'm sure that he wants the closeness back too but your confidence is probably lacking. He might be feeling the same way.

My h is similar. I have tried and tried to talk about it over a number of years. I became suicidal this year and realised it couldn't go on.

We are separating this week. It is very raw.

I think if you haven't you need to talk.

Writing about it on mumsnet really helped me to see that I had raised it often with him when he responded with "you've not mentioned this before" and I think it has really helped me as did making sure of the finances and practicalities before telling him I wanted to split.

My relationship with my DH was like this for about 2 years - indeed you could be writing about the way we were in every sense. He then had an affair which had nightmarish consequences for both of us, personally and professionally. We are still together and have done all of the things recommended on here in terms of lifestyle, being together etc - I am not referring now to dealing with the horrendous emotional fall-out of his affair, which is a separate matter and has been very hard. But the affair was a wake-up call for us both and so we have made major changes.

I am not suggesting for one moment that your DH will have an affair, but men can and do take refuge in others when the going gets tough. You need to regain your appreciation of each other and I know how darned hard that is when you are frazzled and he has shut down. To be frank he sounds depressed - has he, or would he, see the GP?

Sorry to hear that Offred I hope that MN will be a bit like a diary, as well as give me some good advice. I'm worried that I move between minimising and exaggerating what it's like.

Sawoff I have wondered if he's depressed but no way he'll see a GP, especially about touchy feely stuff! He only goes when he thinks he knows what's wrong and what he wants to GP to do which is why he had an infected toe for over 6 months

Still no contact from him today - and I just can't bring myself to reach out yet either. Sitting here with a splitting headache, seriously thinking of taking my could-become-a-migraine headache home early. Want to be in the right frame of mind when I see him so I can say and do constructive things and not just be cross, frustrated and sulky again.

I think if I could have made my dh hear me at this stage you're at then it could have been saved so I wish you luck.

I'm not saying it is your responsibility to draw him out and make him talk and I didn't take on too much burden for drawing my h out, just kept stating the problem and suggesting answers. I feel sad that he wasn't able to get through to him but I'm not really too regretful that I didn't try too hard, I think that would have worn me down more.

Hi, I really feel for you. It's very difficult.
I'm just out of a very similar situation. I was with my husband for 15 years. Two children 5 & 8. We both worked a long way from home full time. I did everything and I mean everything. Eventually I switched off. I had nothing left. I've now left. It's not easy and I still get lonely.
What I want to say to you is this. Do everything you think you can to save your marriage if that is what you want.
If you have got to the point I did where I had nothing left. You have to make a very difficult decision and it won't be easy. There are lots of people who will support you whatever decision you make. Keep your chin up and ask for help if you need it. Take care.

Giving in and taking my headache home. Hope I can rest before DH comes home and requires my taxi from the station

Thank you all. Feeling hopeful I think.

I really feel for you. I was in a very similar situation, together a similar length of time, with DCs of the same age. We both had very demanding careers and the pressure was intense. He had always been my best friend. We had just no time left for each other and I was totally exhausted with all the domestic things etc. He became aggressive towards me and the DCs and started to withdraw. I was too exhausted to try and speak to him, just trapped on a treadmill of work and housework.

Eventually everything imploded, he had an affair, we tried to make it work (well I did, he continued the affair unfortunately). The fall out from divorce was horrendous, issues with both of the DCs, including suicide attempts from one of them. ExH just gave up and ran away. Nothing excuses his affair and his behaviour then and since, but I do regret not pushing for counselling at the time before everything spiralled out of control. Like others have posted, if I could have made him hear me then the marriage could have been saved.

Now, years later, my life is good. DCs are happy and self sufficient. His life isn't and I don't think ever will be. We survived (very difficult at first) and eventually flourished without a big cloud living in the house with us. I will always regret that we couldn't get through the difficult few years - once the DCs are older the childcare and financial pressures ease.

I really hope you can work everything out.

Happy update.

Things came to a ahead a few nights ago. Out of the blue, DH said he can't wait for our new au pair to start because he can then ban my DM from our house!

Background

My parents live in the same village - but not on top of us - and have been a great support since I went back to work, especially during this extended period of no other childcare. We've always got on well with them, and they are very fond of DH. However, my mother is a neat freak who puts that above everything - wouldn't dream of having a family holiday if the living room needed a lick of paint etc. This means that she sometimes comes across as irritatingly judgemental.

I find this hard but, having lived with it all my life, have developed coping strategies, especially as it isn't all consuming and she is fabulous in every other way. It isn't just a matter of needing her help (although we do) there is loads of great stuff, I love her to bits and so do the DC.

DH has been finding it really, really hard. He's decided that my parents despise him and are penalising me for the way he is. Now, some of that is probably a guilty conscience, and explains why he's started to do a bit more to help at home. But it's built to to a point where he thinks my mother is coming between us and I didn't even know he felt that.

Incidentally, my parents do think he's lazy around the house and doesn't support me as much as he could, and they have said so sometimes, but it's not a constant thing and they have never hinted that they think I should be with him.

Back to the other night. I told my DH that I'd had enough. That I couldn't live like this anymore. That I love him to bits but being with someone who is clearly miserable, unhappy and doesn't appear to love me anymore wasn't something I can do.

So it all came out. How much he loves me - and he means it - how he can't imagine not growing old with me, but how he thinks my mother s coming between us and he didn't think he could do anything about it.

We had a long talk and lay awake holding each other for a long time. It's only a couple of days, but the whole atmosphere has changed. He looks ten years younger, I feel more relaxed and I've slept properly. We've even had sex!

I know we need to keep talking and that there'll be bumps along the way, but we're a team again.

Thank you all so much for your support.

Great update, please keep talking to each other.