More I should do or am I being a mug?

[flyingfarfalla]

This is such a horrible thing to say but it has got to the stage where I feel like DP is just tagging along in my life and I am at a loss of how to support him or whether I can/should.

He doesn?t contribute financially (I work FT which is quite stressful but am very lucky to have it and that it pays well so we are financially secure), with childcare (he found it a bit much looking after our toddler when we moved abroad ? which I appreciated? so DS (now 4) is in nursery each day and DP picks him up at 3 and looks after him before I get home and help out with bath and bed) and with looking after the flat which he felt was preventing him from looking for work (so I got a live-in helper who does the cleaning, cooking and shopping). He also doesn?t contribute emotionally (I never get a birthday, Christmas, valentine or mothers day present but always try and make the effort with him).

The main thing though is that he just doesn?t seem to want to do anything at all ever. Honestly, if he was filling the time with a study course, with starting a business, with volunteering, with a hobby etc which made him happy (all of which I have said I would support) I would support that. But he just says he doesn?t know what to do. He says he doesn?t have a ?thing? which makes me a bit upset since I can?t see why me and DS can?t be his ?thing?. (Who really gets to do their thing anyway ? I would love to live in the country and faff around with crafts all day for example but I can?t and accept that).

He also says that he would really like to get a job so that I have to work less but makes little effort to do so (I think he has applied for about 4 in 2 years). He says he feels he can?t do things as well as me but I don?t put pressure on him to do so and I try and boost his confidence ? tell him he is a good dad, that he looks nice etc. He spends most of his time looking at cricket on his bb.

Realising he may well be down or even depressed, I have tried to talk to him and suggested counseling but he says he doesn?t want/need that. When I try and discuss the future and what he thinks we could do to make him and both of us happier/have better job prospects/moving again etc ? he says he doesn?t know and he doesn?t have any ideas.

I have rather lost patience now. This isn?t a partnership and I feel like I am living with another child (although one that has less energy) that I am losing respect for. I feel like I want to cry most mornings and feel let down and sometimes cross. If I tell him I am unhappy he just sighs and says that makes him feel bad so I try and be upbeat as much as I can. I?m trying to be a good partner but am not sure I can love with so little coming back still. It?s not that he is taking advantage by spending lots of money or going out loads (in fact I wish he would go out or get a hobby) it is more death of a relationship through passivity and ennui. Am I being pathetic?

[WhoDat]

I very much doubt your helper thinks he works from home flying You really need to stop being so reasonable and looking at him with these daft rose colored glasses on. Start standing up for yourself, because yes sobbing into your pillow when you are the one who is doing all the work in this relationship is being a mug.

Let him go on holidays, get advice on what your rights are when he's gone (I'm sure you could schedule a phone consult with a UK solicitor while he's away) and then present him with his new reality when he gets back. But, but, but he has to DO IT HIMSELF. Explain why you're unhappy but don't give him options, money, suggestions, wish lists. No more 6mth chats. Lord, that must've been a giddy day for him, another 6mths swinging the lead before he even has to respond! He's like a cocklodging savant

[flyingfarfalla]

Fair points and good strategy WhoDat. I am actually back in the UK for work that week so will fix up to see someone then and maybe start job hunting then too.

[Lazyjaney]

LazeyJaney - I do understand where you are coming from so it would be good to know what else you think I can best to do help him

I don't think 2 years is an unreasonable time to be in a flat tailspin as a trailing spouse. Until you've been there you have no clue what it's like, I'd like to see how the cocklodger chorus on this thread would cope. However, I think it is reasonable to start to want to decide how things are going to pan out going forward, the current situation is untenable.

I also don't think it's possible to find work in any meaningful way, and do full on childcare. But at the moment he is doing neither. I think my initial discussions would be on the current situation's unaffordability long term.

Re work, I'd say in Asia its very hard to get more than low paid service work, outside of a structured corporate job (which no one gives a trailing spouse, no one takes them seriously). This really knocks professional peoples' confidence. I know of no Western trailing spouse who got more than a menial job from someone else, those working at high potential all started their own things. By far the majority fell into book clubs, booze and other time soaks however, or went home or to Australia, back into a more Western culture

I do think that emotionally mistreating you is inexcusable though, my question is whether this is a "now" thing or was happening before you went. Ditto crap sex. If it was a before thing, then I think it's a deeper issue and not due to expat pressures per se.

On that theme, I do wonder how much of your issues overall are due to expat pressures and how much was there before. If its all happened while you're expats, and you really want what was a good relationship to go back to what it was, then it's a different decision to one you'd make if you think it was coming to a close and the expat life has just exacerbated it.

Also, if you are going to split, think carefully about where. I think the complexity of doing it in a 3rd country is huge. Also, if you want custody, it's very hard to do that working without family support in a foreign environment.

[flyingfarfalla]

LazeyJaney..I think you are right that when it started does make a difference to how best to deal with the situation and what is doable. He definitely did contribute more such as making meals and cleaning but he has always struggled making decisions. He hasn't bought presents for years (says is not sure what to get and i think now worries that because he doesnt pay for it he shouldn't get which i have said is silly). He did get worse when DS was born. I took mat leave and then went back 4 days a week but he still found it rather draining having a child and DS has been a bit of an excuse for him..we can't go on that day trip because he needs a nap or moving back to the UK would be tricky because of sorting schools. he raises problems but never solutions or ideas to talk through and it is difficult to get him to express a view. he has definitely got worse since we got here. On reflection I also think though that because we are here alone with little social life (he doesn't like to go out really) it means the problems are now undiluted by other distractions and people and the problems of how different we are become all the more stark.

Originally we were moving to oz since we both wanted to try another country but as the move got closer I realised he hadn't done any planning for somewhere to live or schools or jobs and so when Asia came up for my job it seemed safer option and he seemed relieved in part not to have responsibility. Thank goodness now that we didn't move there!!

I think posters are right that we should move back to UK since that would make me happier and better I'd we do split. If he really wants me to be happy he would. It feels a bit underhand but I can't see other way.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Hi flyingfarfalla,

I would suggest you read "Women who love too much" written by Robin Norwood as well as reading up on co-dependency.

I would not call this man a "trailing" anything let alone spouse at all; he simply does not fit that description.

Even the "trailing spouses" that LazeyJaney writes about are doing something with their lives; your man is doing nothing and contributes nothing. She is right on one point; this current situation is indeed untenable. You do not even get a birthday card from this man.

Your man likely will not want to go back to the UK at all; he's already put up (weak) barriers to it saying that its cold here etc.

I have to look at your behaviours as well; why have you allowed this to happen and for so long now?. Hence the above reading suggestions. Think you were taught by your own parents to people please as well. I also wonder what you learnt about relationships when growing up - that needs your consideration as well.

[flyingfarfalla]

Thanks for the recommendation Attila...off to check out the Amazon store now...

This has definitely been pretty eye-opening for me and so useful. Like a turn through a spindryer but in a good way. Mumsnet is awesome.

[dreamingbohemian]

I think in your shoes I would be very tempted to get you all back to the UK before making any final decisions. You can give your relationship one last go without the expat complications, and you will be in a far better position for custody if you do split. I know he doesn't want to go, but if you are no longer willing to accept and fund the current setup, he doesn't have much of a choice -- unless he gets off the couch and does something to change your mind, like get a job.

[Lazyjaney]

Even the "trailing spouses" that LazeyJaney writes about are doing something with their lives; your man is doing nothing and contributes nothing. She is right on one point; this current situation is indeed untenable. You do not even get a birthday card from this man

It takes quite a long time to sort yourself out as the trailing spouse, if you've never been there you'll never understand it. Maybe read some of the Overseas threads on MN and elsewhere where it's women talking about the trailing spouse problems to get a view of the issues and then take a view of where your DP is compared to others.

The truth is that very few actually manage to do something to hugely advance their lives. A major positive outcome for a trailing spouse is rare, marking time/small diversions or retreat in some way is more common. Alcohol, adultery and ennui is the stereotype, for good reason

MN Relationships also tends to go in for man-kicking in a big way, which blurs the issues here IMO - If the sexes were reversed here these selfsame people would be telling the trailing spouse that their working partner was a selfish arse swanning off to a glamorous job, and to leave the bastard (or just go home and bank the cheques) and take the child back into the warm embrace of a family support network etc etc. Which is quite a common expat outcome in fact.

Somewhere between the "cocklodger who needs to be yoked to the crappy jobs" narrative on this thread, and the reverse narrative above, is where reality lies here. Id also ignore any cod psychology books, you'll always find one that tells you that youre right.

But, from what you've just written OP I think the relationship was slowly moving on it's way out the door before you left. Doing an expat stint, like having a child, puts huge pressure on a relationship and is far more likely to break it than bring people together. Splitting up while in the expat country is IMO a very bad idea for a whole bunch of reasons. I think if I were in your shoes, I'd be thinking of getting back to thevUK before doing anything drastic.

[BranchingOut]

I agree that you need to get back to either the UK or Aus (if you think there is a chance of making a life there). But if you go to Aus, you need to be aware of the ramnifications if you do split.

I think that the impact of the expat lifestyle has been underestimated by some people posting on this thread. I have not been an expat, but I have stayed with a friend in one of the big expat city centres - living in their home, 'helper' and all. I am quite left wing politically, but even during a short stay I experienced the peculiar 'deadening' effect of knowing that I never had to walk anywhere because a taxi was cheaper than chips, knowing that often someone was standing by a door ready to open it for me, having someone else wash my clothes before I even remembered they were dirty and being aware of the huge differences betwen the expats, wealthy locals and those 'in service'. It made me uncomfortable and I was glad to get back to real life after the trip, but I could see how easily it would be to be lulled by the environment into a way of life that was not true to myself.

Just for comparison purposes in terms of what level of activity might be reasonable for him, a few years' ago I was job-seeking with a young child for about 10 months. In that time I did 17 full applications, including filling in detailed forms and, where I got through, attending challenging interviews with presentations and excercises. I also made around 50 well-targeted speculative applications, volunteered once a week and also carried out some freelance work. I had one day a week childcare from a family member, plus nap time and could book some ad-hoc nanny hours to cover my voluntary work and any interviews - but did not do that unless there was a good reason due to cost. So he does have plenty of time to do something during nursery hours - even if it is just some voluntary work.

I think the main thing that would bother me is that he doesnt seem to be interested in anything. He is scarcely living, tbh.

[noobieteacher]

You are lucky to have the uk or Oz to choose from. At least then it's possible for you both to have work and share childcare. Would the gps on both sides be helpful if you moved nearby?

[flyingfarfalla]

I know noobie...very lucky. It would be much harder for me to get work in oz in what I do and his parents are elderly and his sisters don't like me very much (one accused me of giving DS an eating disorder once ). In UK yes, my parents and sister would be very supportive. It would mean big step down in career and income but that is no biggie if happier and it is something that clearly needs to be done.

I agree with previous post that some of these expat cities are very odd indeed!

[flyingfarfalla]

BranchingOut - I think I can safely say there is just a liiiiiiitle difference in input this end to yours! I wrote his last application cover letter since he does find paperwork hard but yes, the bigger issue for both of us is that he doesn't want to do anything really.

[noobieteacher]

Your DS would be starting school soon, primary schools here in the uk are really excellent now. Your son will have a good start and be closer to relatives. Work and housing are a nightmare here, as you probably know, but for children everything is fairly rosy. Most schools have after school clubs and breakfast clubs which also helps.

What a strange world modern expat life must be. Sounds like the colonial days.

[NettleTea]

My abuse radar is pretty high, but something about this post is making me question that.
I am wondering whether there is a chance that your DP might be on the autistic spectrum. Look into Aspergers as a possibility.
Your need to micro manage to get him to do stuff.
The fact that he doesnt seem to actually realise what he should/shouldnt do.
The IT background (!!)
The stress about routines and panic when the child came along.
The initial present buying (because thats what you are SUPPOSED to do in a relationship) which has dwindled
The fear and incapacity when faced with demands and ultimatums.
And the fact that underneath he doesnt seem as if he is setting out to hurt you. He just seems in total limbo.

I may be barking up completely the wrong tree, but may be worth a consideration. You may not get him to accept or investigate though, just to be warned.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Being a "trailing spouse" or "expat" does not give the OPs man any right to do nothing all day long except to watch cricket and pick up the child from nursery. Expat or not he is currently an extremely poor role model to his child.

OP cannot surely be expected to carry this man any more due to him also being an expat who may or may not have problems adjusting.

[deXavia]

I think that now you've opened your eyes to this it will be hard to get back to an equal partnership - or even an unequal but acceptable partnership. Honestly even if he started to make an effort - is this the man you see yourself with in 20/30/40 years?

I've seen many trailing spouses - of both sexes - end up in this situation, this paralysis, but it could be he always had this tendency but some of the social norms in the Expat bubble have just made them more extreme.

Maybe moving back to the UK will jolt him out of that - maybe it won't. So the one thing you may want to consider in this is staying in Asia- subject to custody and legals -you've a good job, live in help and probably excellent schools if you're in one of the big expat centers. I don't know if your parents are still good for travelling? I was joking the other day to DH that if he died (admittedly a very bad joke) I'd actually stay here because despite the outrageous rents and lack of family I could keep my good job and have child care 24 hours a day (the irony of many spouse not working is that childcare is very available and obviously flexible). Anyway just another idea to consider ....

[Lazyjaney]

Being a "trailing spouse" or "expat" does not give the OPs man any right to do nothing all day long except to watch cricket and pick up the child from nursery. Expat or not he is currently an extremely poor role model to his child

You do realise most trailing spouses are women, and they do exactly this with the probable exception of watching cricket why do that when there is gin ?

Are they also poor role models, or is it just the stay at home men?

I think those that have never done this don't realize the whole expat system is not designed for the trailing spouse to work, typically makes it very hard in fact.

A lot of trailing women - the usual trailing spouse - would by this stage have had a reverse discussion, saying they cant put up with the expat lifestyle, and many go back home, taking the kids with them.

The DP here has not coped well, but he is not an outlier. Of more concern is the way he treats the OP, which increasingly seems to have been a feature before they left.

[SolidGoldBrass]

There are no indications that this man is bored or unhappy, though. He wants to stay put, with his fat arse on the sofa, contributing fuck all, indefinitely.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Expatriate or not there is no justification for his actions and lack of around the home.

He has not wanted to do anything; OP has ended up buying in outside help to make up the shortfall. I also do not think he will want to go back to the UK as he has already put up barriers to doing so by saying such guff like "tricky" and "cold".

He is certainly a poor role model to his child, how can OP expect to carry him any longer?.

[Lostinspace1]

I see where Lazyjaney is coming from but I think he really hasn't helped the situation by also not being able to handle childcare. I think expat wives (thinking of my mum here) tend to be more hands on with their kids. Could be a hideous generalisation...

He sounds very depressed. I think Cognitive Therapy might help to motivate him and think more positively.

[WhoDat]

I am a trailing spouse too actually and I completely stand by my cocklodger assessment. The majority of partners I've met are interesting well rounded individuals with plenty going on in their lives and who contribute in a meaningful way to their relationship. Considering he has quite mobile job skills I see no reason why he hasn't found something. Where is his pride? How did I know "he's not very good at paperwork"?!? Surprise surprise. He managed before you came along, you can bet he'd get off his arse quick smart when the gravy train took off without him.

Two years is about the time needed to settle properly so really if he was going to, he would've by now. Really something has to change OP. Going home may indeed be the best option, and I would definitely start calling the shots on that score. I can see you want it to work OP, but you can't do it alone. I hope it all works out for you, you must be so lonely

[Jux]

Can he study, get a qualification and be ready then for when he really does have to get a job? Wherever you live eventually, you won't be where you are now forever and when you do get to your permanent country he'll have to do something. Better to study now while he has loads of time and ready for that eventuality.

[flyingfarfalla]

WhoDat - yes, pretty lonely . It is partly what triggers realising that a relationship is in trouble when you realise you can't actually talk to the person who should be your partner, companion and best friend anymore. I also work with all male colleagues (whose spouses do all work and one is writing a book but of course I appreciate that doesn't mean it is easy for everyone) and who I can't talk to. I agree something has to change and that it will need to be me triggering it.

Jux - absolutely but he doesn't want to and hasn't followed up on my suggestions which is a reason I am losing patience. At one point he said that he would like to start a business with me (which got me really pleased and optimistic that he was getting better!) but then he said that I would need to come up with the idea since he doesn't have any! That made me really and I explained that he is the one with the time to plan and think of one rather than me and that lots and lots of effort needs to go into these things if it is what you really want to do. I also then thought that the fact that he is so undynamic in that and leaving it to me again immediately makes me think that taking on the risk of running a business together with him would be a crazy idea and it was a good warning! I suggested that maybe he could do a bookeeping course since that is a nice general thing to do and would put him in good standing if he did want to start a business in the future. He seemed interested but hasn't followed it up in any way. These kinds of conversations have all contributed to me giving up hope now.

NettleTea - My instincts are the same that (although hugely letting me down and being lazy in contrast to most) he is not deliberately trying to hurt me which is why I find it so hard to turn my back on it and walk away - I still have the sense of obligation and abandoning him in trouble even though I rather want to start a new life now. I suspect there may be depression/anxiety/other issues at play but he won't see anyone and says there aren't. However it is pretty clear to me from this thread and all the advice that my behaviour is enabling his now and I need to do something drastic. legal advice to know position there seems like the sensible first step.

Today I have set him task of making an autumn lantern for DS since he needs to make one for nursery and it is something I would usually do on the weekend or late at night myself. He said "er - ok." so we will see how that goes!

[flyingfarfalla]

Thank you Hesterton...I appreciate the kind words. It is very odd behaviour isn't it?! When my sister and husband were staying with us and it was mothers day, her DH bought her a present from her DS and then kindly bought one for me from mine since DP hadn't! DP said he felt bad but then when my birthday came round...nothing again. When a friend of mine died recently...nothing again. When i sound off about work he listens and nods and appears to get cross on my part but no suggestions or a big hug or anything. Yet I still honestly do think he loves us but can't act normally to show it because of this weird paralysis.