"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

amazingness dunno how I missed your thread in November, that's horrific!

YANBU to have come away, and gone non contact. Your mother's réaction is very disappointing indeed.

She is choosing to back a man that has beaten her children, and assaulted one of them while pg.

Says more about her than anything else. Could you imagine allowing your OH to do that to your children!?

Don't go at Christmas. Why on earth would you? There's been no recognition of what your DF did, he himself hasn't spoken to you since. Your mother however has called on a weekly basis using every manipulative tactic she knows, when an apology from him would have gone a lot further.

Why is it weekly (clockwork) calls? My dm did this, every sodding weekend i'd be waiting for the number withheld call that I had to ignore.

If you go back now, everything will be swept under the carpet and you'll never get them to see what they've done.

Tbh, you won't ever get them to see this, but while you hold firm, there's always a chink of hope.

Make your stand. Make your point.

You are worth more than this, than being assaulted and insulted in front of your children.

What, out of interest, does your OH think of this?

Oh sing, just pregnancy - awake since 3.30, body is preparing itself for night feeds!

Pumpkin - great advice - siblings can do their own thing. Makes sense. I have to make sure I stay stress free & calm esp at 30 wks.

Yes it is your innate people pleasing tendencies cropping up yet again. Please yourself for a change!.

If you go back at all to them amazingness in any way, shape or form it will be one step up and two steps back for you. Its a real retrograde step.

Do not put yourself under any such pressure at all given that you are pregnant (congratulations!) as well. You do not need your parents approval any more, not that these two ever gave you such anyway. Your siblings just want to continue the pretence that their birth family is not the dysfunctional unholy mess it really is; that is up to them. Denial is also a powerful force for many people. You however, do not have to play their games anymore.

Longer term I would keep all your children away from your parents; toxic parents make out for being toxic grandparents as well.

Thanks hissy. OH is now thinking enough time has passed since Halloween for me to be able to see them, in the spirit of 'peace at Xmas' but in a joking way iykwim

His parents also live near mine, so he may trot up there with DCs to visit the nice gps, stay with them instead, & pop by for one hour to see mine.

Without me though. I've made that clear...like you say, I just don't need to go backwards with this, otherwise they will never ever get the message that it was serious what F did.

The very irritating message I'm getting from them & siblings is that I should forgive them & move on

But why?!!!

Thanks hissy. OH is now thinking enough time has passed since Halloween for me to be able to see them, in the spirit of 'peace at Xmas' but in a joking way iykwim

His parents also live near mine, so he may trot up there with DCs to visit the nice gps, stay with them instead, & pop by for one hour to see mine.

Without me though. I've made that clear...like you say, I just don't need to go backwards with this, otherwise they will never ever get the message that it was serious what F did.

The very irritating message I'm getting from them & siblings is that I should forgive them & move on

But why?!!!

Thanks Attila. Yes, I do feel it would be a retrograde step by going there. Not to mention the long car journey, the awkwardness of sitting in their house biting my lip drinking tea while they put on their usual fake show of look at our perfect house full of family at Xmas. I can guarantee that there will be a drama between siblings & parents after the usual 2 days together, and frankly I just don't want to be involved. I'm tired and fed up of all the years of their roller coaster behaviour/walking on eggshells/trying to predict their moods

It's exhausting.

How is everyone else here going to manage Xmas? Are you all staying at home or visiting the toxics?

Hi amazing the show of fake pretence, we know it all so well on here! Unfortunetly !

I remember for atleast 6 years running, keeping up with the madness of christmas to please dh & pil, even had sil2 over one year.
It was awful, watching their attitudes & treatment towards us all whilst they sat there whilst we cooked, washed up, organised whilst they exchanged glances & said things that shouldn't be said.

Went non contact last year in august, it's the best thing i ever did for me and my children & along the way dh has saw them less & less too.

Dh is already being pressurized as they ramp up their campaign for seeing dc for christmas although they know full well i shall not be allowing contact with my children. So far they are texting or phoning him atleast once a day on the subject as they think they can manipulate him into getting me to agree. This will not happen, ever, i am done with his family and believe my children would be in danger if i allowed further visits, emotionally aswell as physically.

So far dh stands tough and i'm hoping this year they don't cause trouble between us. The FOG normally gets him soon and he is bogged down by it.
I cannot deal with them now, i'm 8 months pregnant & the stress isn't worth it. Dh has already said he is panicking about their behaviour when dd is born. I said to him in no uncertain terms i will not back down for christmas or for baby & as far as i'm concerned they will never see this grandchild for aslong as i'm alive whether he likes it or not.

Mind if I join in?

I'm NC with my family - parents and only sibling - and have been for some years now.

Amazingness yes, you have every right to stay away. If your siblings want to see your DC that much, they could come to your neck of the woods instead.

But I think you're right they want that fantasy of the happy family. My take on it is that denial is a very powerful protective strategy against potentially unbearable pain.

The way I see it, as children we have no recourse to anything but denial, so that's our survival mechanism, and as the years go by and we apparently grow up, that denial becomes entrenched in us. Sometimes that's a very overt form of denial - minimising, forgetting, justifying the abuse. But also unconsciously - the adult part of you might know that it was wrong, but the child, who's frozen in arrested development, still clings to the fantasy that the family home was a safe, loving place, and nothing that bad really happened (and that anything bad that did happen was the fault of the child anyway).

The abusive/enabling parents and any colluding relatives will obviously back this to the hilt, as will society in general, IME - most people do not want to acknowledge that parents can fail their children that badly and feel very uncomfortable when you say you don't speak to them, especially if you're nc with your mother. It's not something you can easily drop into casual chit chat, is it.

But anyway, essay aside, I do think it's the denial working in them, and that denial exists because it's still too scary for them to confront what really went on. I'm presuming the sister who was regularly beaten is coming? I can see a sort of psychological justification for why she would want to deny it while you are not doing so, even though she was the one actually getting beaten - it was bad enough for you and you were "only" the witness (clearly I'm not minimising the impact on you! I quite understand that you were abused in this situation too); the levels of denial that she had to exercise to cope with being the explicit target of your father's rage would necessarily have had to be even higher than yours, and so the fear of breaking down those walls of denial and the fear of the pain hidden behind them will be very strong.

There are few things in life more painful than acknowledging your own parents didn't/don't really love you, IMO. Realising they really don't care how much they hurt you. It's a very deep, primal wound and some people will go to any lengths to avoid facing it (that's my explanation for why there are so many fucked up people in the world...).

That's my take on why they're both trying to get you to play happy families anyway... I would guess you actually have a degree of emotional safety in your life now that they don't (you're the only one with a partner and DC too, aren't you? Quite telling also...) which enables you to stand up and see the truth, where they can't.

Having said all that - congrats if you've read this far and made sense of my wordiness! - well done to you for standing up to your parents now, I hope you can continue to do so, and that the pressure to play along doesn't get too intense.

A great post TalkingintheDark.

Amazingness, in answer to your question posed earlier I'm going on holiday.

Christmas ah yes - well not surprisingly my DM has decided not to visit this year. My Dsis is going away a few days after Christmas so it would have meant DM having to come to us for more than a day and also making her own arrangements for getting back to the airport to fly back to Europe.

I was on the point of feeling guilty for not insisting hard enough that she come to us (and for putting in place the means of making it happen eg driving her to the airport) but then she blamed her decision on the fact that we were going to my FIL for lunch on Boxing Day!

She also has decided that she'll come over for her birthday instead - the subtlety here being that the visit is then all about her and she doesn't have to bother about gifts etc for the family.

Pumpkin I can't believe that you are 8 months already! Seems like only yesterday you were in the early days.

Keep well

Personally, i'd not allow contact between the dc and your parents on their territory.

If they want to see them, let them beg eat humble pie,apologise and flipping well behave on YOUR territory

There was an apparently extra long message left for me the week before last. Since then nothing, no assuming mother's putting the ball back in my court to contact them.

I kind of wished i'd heard what she had to say, but the message before was all total denial and there was. More than a hint of blaming me for not allowing her to have my son for a weekend. "Hey, plans change, don't they"

The reason I changed my mind was because she moved without telling me where...

I deleted the message without hearing it (as I did/do most others) I'm thinking that it'd be nice if she had have acknowledged her actions, but that wouldn't have happened would it? If i'd have listened, it'd :ave upset me again wouldn't it?

It still hurts. But not quite so much as it did.

Somehow time helps, but I feel also that somehow time hurts too.

The longer this impasse goes on, the more they're clearly determined to maintain their entitlement to have done all they have done.

They still think it's ok to treat me like they did/do.

I have asked them what they would do if someone did all the things they have done to me, to them. They never answered. But yes, i'm expected to STFU and get back in line.

Not going to happen.

Hello all. Great post Talk. In answer to amazing's question, I'm not NC with my mother. She's coming to ours for xmas lunch but only lunch and a friend is coming too which will hopefully defuse any awkwardness btw FM and DH. She's behaving ok atm and has said she'd like to contribute a really nice dessert for the lunch so hopefully it'll all go ok.

Btw dm and dh.

Great post talkinginthedark! That makes complete sense and also explains why my dh always goes back for more.

meery my pregnancy seems to have flown by this time, before i know it she'll be here. Thankyou for the wellwishes x

Saw that mil also text dh yesterday too asking if he would meet her at the local supermarket! Fgs her campaign is heating up & yes i was rather scared she had mentioning seeing my dd walk home from school and i have had to tell her if she is approached to carry on walking if she sees their car.

We are having xmas at home this year and my dm is coming

Really insightful intelligent post Talkinginthedark. So many valid points, denial is very evident in the siblings behaviours, they have good careers etc could choose to spend Xmas anywhere, with anyone else, but they have paid hundreds each to get to toxic parents house!

Baffles me!

It's almost like they're under a spell of duty, yes very manipulated still by Dm

I understand the duty thing and the guilt even they've been awful to you. I still struggle mightily with it.

Oh I hate Christmas for this reason all the expectations and presumptions that families are nice people and home is a happy place! Makes me feel pukey. I'm nc with my family and have no intention of changing that but xmas ratchets up my anxiety on this and makes me feel like a freak..I'm not a freak and my family make me feel horrible - so I won't be getting in touch or responding outside of the boundaries I've dat for myself to keepme healthy.

Sorry v self involved post but I needed to say it somewhere. Life's good without them - better than I could habe imagined. Much strength I wish to those pg you feeling conflicted anxious guilty and everything else. Its hard - but you aren't automatically wrong if ypu don't do what someone wants from you. Big hug to everyone having it hard and roll on bloody January

Hi,

Can I join you please? I posted earlier this week outlining the awful relationship I have with my mum and asking for advice. I was unanimously advised to go nc with her and to keep my children away from her. I'm not sure how to link but can see some of the posters who advised me are on this thread so will hopefully recognise me.

It's the guilt, the fear of the repercussions, 'what will people think'

The fallout, the pressure from siblings terrified of the very idea that they could/should do the same. The perpetuation of the role carved out for us.

Common sense decisions have no place here, logic is not welcome.

Hi Scottybeammeup,

Glad you found this thread; you will hopefully find additional support here.

It is NOT your fault your mother is the disordered way she is; you did not make her that way. Her own family did that.

Thank you Attila and thank you for your thoughful post. I keep going back and rereading the advice. I was so nervous posting as worried people might tell me to grow up and get over myself. I'm constantly analysing myself and my actions to see if I've overreacted or exaggerated what has happened. Its always such a relief when people witness it as it almost validates for me that I'm not going mad and she is just being nasty.

There has still been no contact from her. I know from Facebook that she has now moved house but she hasn't told, me where despite me asking in my last text to her which was at the beginning of November. Its just not normal behaviour is it?

Hi everyone. I haven't been around for a while. Things not changed that much other than I haven't met up with my dad since August although contact through phone occasional and text and my mum I haven't see her for a few months. Although so her for 2 mins last weekend when I had to pick my sister up to go to a Christmas do. I've spoken to him tonight and spoke about our conversations that it pretty much turns to him digging or criticising me and being very nasty. I said you wouldn't dream of speaking to others in that way eg my husbands family or friends etc and he said because I feel I can get away with it with you and That he wants others to think he's great. I mean I feel less comfortable with people I don't know closely but it's not an act I'm not pretending to be nice.
I just learn more and more about my family every day. I would say he has been verbally abusive to me when we are on our own and called my husband too. He wouldn't do it if my husband or others were there. But then he thinks it's okay with me because I guess "I've still put up with it" . Can't believe he thinks like this I've been the one whose been running round after him. Making him meals. Sorting all sorts for him in the past, being a nice daughter . Then he abuses me and I am the one who has been the nicest then others he treats lovely. I'm very hurt you know. I feel stupid and I often come home crying from what he had said to me and still thought maybe it was me but after this revelation he knows what he's been like. He's said such cruel things. But then he wouldn't do it infront of others what does that tell you? I've just kept going back for more because I loved him and family is very important to me.

He's made lies up and all sorts over the years. He's caused a rift with his sister " my aunty" recently by spreading lies about me and my husband. I think I'm done. I've hung in and in for years been nice but just didn't get anything back. Why did I put up with this for so long? Do I dislike myself this much. My mum is also narcisstic and I just feel both parents have abused me emotionally and as a child hit me with slippers.

I think there game seems to be they will reduce you to being weak so they can keep on bullying you. Then when you try to say enough is enough particularly with my mum she bombards you with messages saying your not the same girl and your not thinking clearly, that if she dies she will regret it. My dads said the same. You'll have to live with yourself etc. things like this. I mean what a guilt trip to put on a person. My mother has done all sorts. Turned my younger sibling against me by lying and manipulating her and then she denies it. But funny how sister doesn't speak to me when I'm not speaking to mum. I actually feel hatred towards mum for that as I looked after her from a baby as I'm much older. She denies she does anything . She plays games and it's a head mess up really.
The situation just brings me to tears . Why can't I have loving , supportive parents
Anyway thanks.