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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is he an emotional abuser or am I being dramatic?

23 replies

knittedknickers · 11/08/2013 18:14

I have nc for this as think STB ex may be reading this site and may know my old username.

I have been with STB ex-partner for 12 years, we have two small children. After years of feeling that he gets really nasty/verbally abusive every time we have a disagreement I have had enough and, though we are living together until he finds somewhere suitable, have essentially ended the relationship. I am so confused about it all and want others opinions on whether I'm right to end it for these reasons. I know that essentially it's up to me and doesn't matter what other people think but i swing from one view to the opposing one within minutes, constantly, and I feel like I'm going insane.

From early on I would be stunned by the fact that when we disagreed he seemed to lose his temper in a disproportionate way. He would shout and accuse me of various personality faults, frequently storming off, slamming doors but always with very insulting things being shouted. He would accuse me of being all manner of things 'a liar, fantasist, over-sensitive, aggressive, emotionally unstable, a bad mother, weak, pathetic, thick, control freak' etc etc. I'm no mouse and would shout and argue back but am not as shouty or insulting as him and also I used to be shocked at his reaction so often I felt incredulous that he could switch from being calm, patient, easy-going, affectionate to this very angry man who seemed to totally hate me during a row. For a long time, I used to feel so hurt afterwards that I would withdraw and it took me a while before I felt able to 'forgive' him again, even though he was usually the one to suggest we make up and 'forget about it'. He used to accuse me of sulking and said we only still had a relationship because of him as he was the only one who was prepared to make the first move. However, I felt so attacked - maybe I was 'sulking' but I was often still reeling from all the viciousness he displayed.

I made loads of threats that I wanted to finish the relationship, always in the heat of a row and when he'd been what I saw as horrible to me, but he would always convince me that we could work it out afterwards, (when we could talk calmly about things a few days later - he was always very reasonable and 'convincing' then and I could see where I had patronised/upset/been controlling towards him etc. I didn't think for one minute that it was all my fault - I always said he had a nasty temper and that if he didn't react like that then I would not be threatening to split up every time - but I could see (and still do) that I played a part in the problems. It is my house so in the early days I even chucked him out a few days (to my real shame) because I just wanted such an angry and insulting person out of my hair - though I accept that this was unfair and he always had to stay at his brother's etc. This hasn't happened since we've had children or indeed for many years but it did in the early couple of years.

After a year or so, I made a definite decision not to be a push over and again, very much to my shame, I started getting nasty back. I know this is wrong but I remember telling him he was acting like a bouncer/neanderthal man/idiot etc. I wish I had just kept my cool but I didn't. I have to say, though, that when I do/did keep my cool and try to be reasonable or just walk away, he would go mad and say I was being patronising/acting superior/being irresponsible by just driving off (for 20 mins sometimes to cool down and get away from him) so I do feel that I can't win.

Once we had children and some very very nasty rows (where I have totally lost it after he said things such as that he'd never tried for a child and that I'd tricked him (having been trying for 1 1/2 years); that he wasn't sure that he was the father (he has no reason at all to think i've been unfaithful and i never have but he's always showed a suspicious nature towards me and says I will have an affair); and then suggesting I have a 'strange' relationship with my father (which I was very upset about as it suggested something sinister to me though he later denies meaning that); anyway, we have cooled the rows right down over the last few years and mainly because I think we both realised how damaging it was potentially for the children. To cut a very long story short (er) we have basically stopped rowing so much but still when the rows happen they are still fairly horrible and he still always immediately jumps up and starts shouting/accusing me of things without reason (as I see it). Last year, he just stopped talking to me - I was used to this happening - if he was upset/annoyed about something that I/one of my friends/family had said then instead of discussing it with me, he would just totally withdraw. This time, it was a very innocent and jokey comment made by my friends and it honestly was not offensive but he misread it and took it as an attack on him and what he stands for (even though he later conceded that i had not even said a word during this conversation!) He basically refused to say what was wrong but as usual in these situations, he just went nowhere near me (though affectionate when all's well, he would not cuddle/sit near me/only kissed me on the head (?)/gave me no eye contact/and basically only spoke to me about the bare essentials ie the children). I could have snapped him out of this though it traditionally takes a few days (groan) but this time, because I was just so bloody sick of feeling like a social worker at these times, I didnt. I stayed civil and reasonably friendly but just played him at his own game and stopped asking him what was wrong. I wasn't playing games in fact but just hoped that if i acted like an adult and didn't try to 'mother' him by cajoling him out of his mood, he would 'come to'. He let this go on for 3 months!!! On boxing day, he hugged me and said 'come on, let's forget about this silly not talking, hey?' I said that I was not just going to brush over this and wanted to discuss things properly as this was not normal in a relationship and horrible for the children. Nothing more was said and then a few days later, I admit I was being a bit arsy (honestly not horrendous just a bit of a pain in the bum and snappy) about taking the christmas tree down (i'm only mentioning this to emphasise that it was my fault and i was snappy but it was over something very mundane) but he didn't like the way i spoke to him and he just exploded. He shouted incredibly loudly at me, saying 'you'd better back off or i'm warning you, you'll regret it as i'll say some things that will really upset you'. (He always seems to react as though I'm attacking him). The children were upset (I didn't shout, not least because I wouldn't have been heard but also because the kids were right there and clearly upset). I waited til the evening, told him that his response was unreasonably aggressive, and when he mocked me, saying i'd better say my piece because it's very boring and he could only listen to it for a little while, and that we are clearly totally incompatible, I said 'Ok, fine, well for me, that's it, we are totally incompatible and I can't deal with this anymore, it's over.' He agreed but then in the morning fell apart when he realised i meant it. He begged, bought me presents, cried etc and i felt terrible, constanly questioned myself and whether i'm a total bitch etc but in the end just felt that whether i'm in the wrong, he is or it's just both of us, i don't want to continue in this unstable, rocky relationship.

I am now pushing him to move out as he has dug his heels in and i guess we've both let time pass as we've actually got on very well as just friends living together but I feel now that he we have to separate or we never will. In all of this, though i haven't mentioned them much and the effect this is having on them, i am very aware that the most important thing is our gorgeous children. We both love them very, very much. He feels that it will completely mess them up if we split up and my stance has always been that it's better for them to see us living separately but happy, than together and unhappy. I have spoken to a couple of friends and their overriding response is 'leave him, these rows are not normal and very bad for the children, the children will be OK' but more than that, they keep saying that i 'deserve' a life too. That's the problem - i feel incredibly selfish - on him, on the children, on everyone who is going to be affected by this like my parents who will worry (even though i'm practically bloody middle-aged!) I've tried to present a fair picture of things but i know it will have been more one-sided really.

Would you leave or would you stay, like he wants to, together longer (he suggested til youngest was 18!) but i'm thinking maybe a few years until they are older and can understand it more. Could that work? Am I expecting too much in a relationship? Am I dramatic? Is it an OK idea to stay living together just 'as friends' for the sake of the children? Sorry it is SOOO long!

OP posts:
AnyOldFucker · 11/08/2013 18:16

he is an emotional abuser and I would end it properly.

it suits him to keep the status quo, but I believe it is more damaging to children than them having 2 happy parents that live apart

Lweji · 11/08/2013 18:22

I'm sorry I haven't read it all.

LTB.

KnittedC · 11/08/2013 18:28

You are damaging the children by staying together and interacting so dysfunctionally. You are modelling for them what a 'normal' relationship is. Would you want your childrens' future relationships to be like this?

ChristineDaae · 11/08/2013 18:34

Don't stay together 'for the kids'
Not sure what sex your children are, but you are teaching your sons it's ok to treat women like this, and your daughters that this is what they should expect in a relationship. Get out.

knittedknickers · 11/08/2013 21:13

Bloody hell, sorry, that is long! No, you're all right - I don't want the children to think this is a 'normal' relationship. And most of the time I tend to reach the conclusion that they're better with us apart. The problem is that because we have lived together fairly harmoniously for the past few months I have almost forgotten how lonely and horrendous I felt when the rows happened. If I'm honest, I'm selfish as well. The reality of splitting up is that the children will be with him for part of the week (he wants them three days a week) and I dread having to go alternate Christmases without them. I know this is selfish and it should be about what's best for them but I can't help dreading the thought of all this. Going back to my original post, though, do I sound abusive as well? (I'm prepared for honest answers) because he says that he thinks women who are 'bossy' and 'controlling' get called just that when actually he thinks that's a form of abuse.

OP posts:
AnyOldFucker · 11/08/2013 21:27

He simply does not like women who stand up for themselves

he is a sexist twat, that you are better off without

Lweji · 11/08/2013 21:27

Even if he was right, then you should leave.

Do you really think he'll have them 3 days?

Finola1step · 11/08/2013 21:35

Good grief. How much more are you going to put up with? You've finished the relationship yet you let him stay - for months.

He needs to go. Now. No waiting until something suitable. Not your problem. He is continuing to control the relationship by not moving out. And you are letting him.

Pack his bags tomorrow. He will find somewhere to stay pretty damn quick. Good riddance and good luck.

AnyOldFucker · 11/08/2013 21:36

Many men in this situation do a lot of attention seeking yapping about how they want the kids 50/50

sometimes it is true

sometimes it is to get their uppity female partner who dares to question their superiority to STFU and the actual idea of having their kids for 3 days a week is the furthest idea from their mind and every other weekend

I mean, it would detract from the skirt-chasing, wouldn't it ?

proceed ahead with what suits you, OP

not what you fear might happen, because that is often very, very far from the reality

TwoStepsBeyond · 11/08/2013 21:42

Regardless of the label (abuse, control, incompatibility) you deserve to be happy. Your DCs will benefit from the separation, even if you have all forgotten how awful things were. You know you didn't come to this decision lightly, so don't let the rosé tinted specs colour your view of your dysfunctional relationship.

Sharing parenting is hard, it's heart breaking at first, but there is also a huge upside, time to yourself, for hobbies, work, a new (better) relationship. If its handled correctly there is no need for a break up to damage your DCs, but staying in this toxic environment would have damaged you all.

I speak as someone who recognises much of what you have experienced and I can honestly say that I wish I'd LTB years ago! Not to be flippant, but just to say, trust your instincts, this was not right and you've made a brave decision on behalf of you all to start a better life. X

TwoStepsBeyond · 11/08/2013 21:47

And yes, 3 days is highly unlikely for a man who apparently didn't want them in the first place and 'doubts their paternity' - he hardly sounds like dad of the year.

Be prepared for him to suddenly transform into Superdad just to spite you, but know that you are the constant and steady influence in their lives and you will always do right by them, so if he wants to go overboard and make them happy as part of his game, let him.

Then be there for them if the novelty wears off ( a year down the line, the frequency of access has decreased for my DCs but he's still 'fun dad' who takes them out to the park or to the cinema - he never did that when we were together) and I get a night off with my lovely DP, win win!

knittedknickers · 12/08/2013 20:03

No, he will definitely go for three days at week and will fight for alternate Christmases and all that. Apart from the upset, this is one of the main reasons i haven't been forceful about him moving out. Despite the fact that i've made him sound unbearable (probably) he actually is a good dad and they absolutely love him to bits. They will be devastated, there is no doubt about that. He has this thing about everything being 'fair' - hence, if i say i think he has behaved in an emotionally abusive way towards me at times (i know, i shouldn't have said that but was trying to get through to him as to why i find it so important to separate as he just didn't get it); he has accused me of being abusive. I ask why? He claims that i am bossy and controlling and that that is abusive as well but it doesn't get called that when women behave in this way. He has always insisted that whatever my parents do (eg look after kids for the day/make a cake for a family occasion etc) then he has to ask his parents to do it as that's 'fair' even though they never offer to do things like that and i'm much, much closer to mine so they just are more 'hands on'. He now says that as they are his children, it's 'fair' for them to be with him 50% of the time - now, on this occasion and because I know how much he loves them, i don't feel i can argue because it is fair. I just don't want to be without them 3 days a week. Although - yes, he does lose patience with them easily and shouts so i think he will find it very hard work.

OP posts:
Tortington · 12/08/2013 20:14

its one upmanship on the biggest level ive ever seen.

if he can't see he is being unreasonable - nothing is to be done.

if you said this to him, he would counter with " you are being more unreasonable" i bet.

if he is unwilling to look at hi own behaviour to the extent of losing his family, you have no hope. try relate, maybe someone else in the room might put into perspective what he things is normal. cos it isn;'t

MadameBlavatsky · 12/08/2013 21:21

Run like the wind and don't look back. 'Fair' would have been you dumping his sorry ass the first time he was verbally abusive. Don't doubt yourself now, you KNOW he hasn't changed one bit. This is just an act and the mask will slip again without a doubt. You will see all this so much clearer once you are properly away from him.

He is NOT a good dad. Good dads do not abuse the mothers of their children. You have NOT been abusive to him, he says that because he wants you to question your own reality. It's bullshit.

And all kids love their parents, even abusive ones, and kids in an abusive household can be even more bonded to the abusive parent. It's called traumatic bonding and it means that you have to protect them from further damage by getting away from him. It will be the best thing you could ever do for them. Would you want your DD to think this is how to be treated? Or your DS to thing that its ok to treat women like this?

Fuck him and don't listen to a word he says. Get the Lundy Bancroft book. It will help you to understand what has happened and will blow away the cobwebs of confusion

You don't have to just accept what he says re custody arrangements also. Have you got a solicitor?

You can do this, don't stop now. No woman regrets leaving an abusive relationship. You and your kids WILL be happy again. Trust yourself.

AnyOldFucker · 12/08/2013 21:28

He is a cock of the highest order

if it goes to the family court, they will decide what is best for the children , not agree with his ridiculous idea of "fairness" (which is actually just one of the sticks he employs to beat you with)

he is sounding more and more like one of those idiots who make a lot of hot air, but actually get laughed at around the water cooler by the professionals

who the fuck does he think he is ?

AnyOldFucker · 12/08/2013 21:29

don't do relate with this dickhead

he will convince the counsellor how wrong you are too

he is a narcissit and they are very convincing

go straight for the family solicitor...they have seen all this bullshit a thousand times over

AnyOldFucker · 12/08/2013 21:30

*narcissist

knittedknickers · 12/08/2013 21:47

Bloody hell, thank you so much for all your comments - you have no idea how much this helps me to see things more clearly. I feel like the clouds are finally lifting for good (a cliche, i know, but i have been so confused and gone back and forth so many hundred times). Would you believe I have got the Lundy Bancroft, Madame? And even though I could recognise many traits and familiar scenarios in there, I kept telling myself that he wasn't that bad.... I feel so upset to think that i am allowing my kids to witness this as a 'normal' relationship - i am determined now to break that cycle ASAP.

Having said all of that, I've done and said some really horrible things during rows and i am absolutely not blameless but thanks all for reassurance that it's right to split up. I'm looking up 'narcissist' now, AnyOld - MN is so educational! Really appreciate you lot x

OP posts:
Twinklestein · 12/08/2013 22:11

For the record: bossy is not abusive.

I don't think it's possible to have more than one child & not boss tbh.

You called him on his abusive behaviour & now he's playing the victim & counter-calling it to confuse you.

You're getting on fine because now it's over & he's on his best behaviour.

If you get sucked back in you will go back to the endless rounds of rants, sulks & silent treatments.

tallwivglasses · 13/08/2013 08:40

LTB. The 3 months silence till Boxing Day for something your friends said would have done it for me. I'd have had him under the patio by New Year, you're a saint. Nasty, nasty man.

appletarts · 13/08/2013 20:13

I think you sound as bad as each other and ought to finish for the sake of the children

formicadinosaur · 13/08/2013 20:50

The kids need to see you both happy either as singles or in a relationship. Leave your husband.

ThereGoesTheYear · 13/08/2013 21:08

LTB. He sounds awful. He's on his best behaviour because he knows you can almost taste what life would be like without him. You don't sound abusive. He does.

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