How to be objective regarding money in (second) marriage

[Interestingchanges]

Inspired by another thread on spending, I'd like to ask mns how they deal with the slightly trickier situation of being married second time round, with each having dc from former relationship.

Dh has 2 dc and I have 1, relatively similar ages, from resident (ds), 50:50 (dss) to regular contact (dsd).
Dh earns considerably more than me and contributes slightly more to common pot (own accounts), mostly though because he and his consume more (food, water, electricity, ...) then me and mine.

I think I wouldn't be asking if I hadn't made an error in judgement and bought a house with dh. We should have talked about the implications before but as we came upon a good opportunity we saw it as fate and jumped in!

As I used my savings and dh is paying back loan to (my) family member over very extended period, my present will sees ds as beneficiary, dh has however right to live there till he dies and house cannot be sold from under him (drawn up by solicitor who also cuts me out of any dh inheritance (which from gps will probably be considerable, which will go straight to his kids).

Please flame me if I'm being a selfish bitch, btw.

Dh has full knowledge of my finances, I have no secrets (and hes nosey) and always pay my half of things. But I feel he's being really petty by denying me insight into his finances, although its clear I don't want to take anything! I realize he got burned at divorce, but I can't help feeling insulted and marginalized. I looked after myself and ds as lone parent for years and am seriously great at budgeting/ saving etc.

I'd welcome any thoughts on this, particularly if experienced in the matter and somehow found right balance?
Many thanks

[missbopeep]

Thanks for clarifying that 2Rebecca. I don't think that's an option with either of our pensions, but it doesn't apply anyway as each of our DCs is now over 23 and paying into their own pensions! We very recently re-wrote our will, and this wasn't something the legal team brought up, so until you mentioned it, I wasn't aware of it at all.

[Interestingchanges]

Due to a rather interesting friendship with exw aunt and hubby, who apparently sided with my dh during their rocky marriage and still visit us, I know that finances re exw and their assets are true.
The nest egg I was referring to was indeed money dh had squirreled away during their marriage (blah, blah, I was totally justified, blah, blah), in sum just about half of the "deposit money" he got legit from the divorce settlement. All none of my business, but indeed fact.
I have seen some bank statements over the past 4 years, maybe 3 in total, so I have a fair idea of what he earns.
BUT, dh gets a sizeable bonus now and again and I have never understood why he would tell me he was getting x sum and expecting a round of applause for how great he is, when in fact a % of that will go to ex (she has an airtight right to salary and any extras earned above that), and he doesn't share with me anyway (if I'm ever given an expensive present, he expects one back, so I've stopped all expensive present giving as its a sham).
Sorry, I've started to ramble a bit... A friend asked me recently what I get out of the marriage (she considers him an anti social sourpuss), and I said once or twice yearly we like going on city breaks at weekends (again, he makes a big thing about paying for it when in fact we only travel when its the absolute cheapest and I'm expected to contribute by paying for meals out, any extras, that all add up too).
And just to be really really clear, any kind of expense he incurs "treating me", when "oh no this is MY treat" is said, then it usually means extremely generous sexual favors are expected in return. I've now taken to paying own cinema ticket or getting the popcorn!
Why can't he see I would be happy to reciprocate anyway, why must he spoil any positive thing he does for me by asking for his pound of flesh - literally or symbolically?

[missbopeep]

Why can't he see I would be happy to reciprocate anyway, why must he spoil any positive thing he does for me by asking for his pound of flesh - literally or symbolically?

Because he's a miserable, selfish, deceitful ,tight bastard? Just for starters.

You could find any number of people to go on a city break with. If this is the reason you stay married- well.!

So he deceived his ex- keeping money hidden that ought to have gone into the marital pot to be shared when they split? Nice. Any chance he's doing that again?

I wouldn't believe his aunt- again, families have complicated agendas which can go back decades so who knows the real truth.

Maybe the law is different where you live, but it would be most unusual for an exW to have a continuing claim on her exHs's salary and bonuses ad infinitum.

Especially when we assume, she is young enough and healthy enough to earn her own living?

Why did they not have a clean break settlement?
Why did his legal team not push for that?

Or is this something else that he's being deceitful over?

[Twinklestein]

I think you're being very sensible protecting your assets to go to your son. HenWithAttitude's post was great. So many people get burnt from first marriages.

But I'm not sure I totally believe your husband's narrative about his first marriage. It sounds like he's the one who wants to live beyond his means - his first wife was wealthy & his second is also comparatively well off. He ended up with a 'nest egg' from her eh? You were happy in your flat but he decided that his children were entitled to a bigger property, despite the fact he didn't have the direct means of paying for it.

I would not put his name on the house yet. At the moment the house belongs to you & your sister. Until he has paid off his debt he has only contributed a deposit and towards renovations.

But that does not justify him keeping his finances secret (very bizarre logic that he thinks it does). He needs to disclose everything.

Could you prompt full disclosure by jointly going to see a new financial advisor to verify you're both managing your assets to the optimum?

[Interestingchanges]

Missbo, yep, that was the settlement, the exw gets maintence % from salary and any extra earnings (dh had settlement looked at again about 2 years ago and there's no getting out of the extras bit) until the dsc are about 24 (no doubt at all that both will attend uni and here that's about the age students graduate). But there is no doubt in my mind that dh will continue to fund them well into middle age... It's an ego thing, I think.

Twinklestein, I admit I don't understand your last comment, please explain to me what you meant, thanks. Otherwise you are spot on. It took me years to see her side of things as of course dh demonized her and unfortunately her own bizarre behaviour did nothing to make me think well of her.

Why am still bothering at all? There are many reasons I suppose:

All the dc are happier then they have ever been

My ds always wanted siblings and they miss each other when apart

I am more active re going out, doing stuff (used to be terribly shy and awkward)

I've grown a backbone

I see the difference I've already made to dh life (my ils love me for it) and to dsc lives (credit from ils and dh)

I'm a mad and incurable optimist and sincerely believe that given the tools (e.g. Advise on mn, solicitor...) I can build the perfect marriage.

[Twinklestein]

I see nothing from what you've said to indicate that you can't build what you want from this. There are obviously lots of positives, it's just a question of managing your husband into a more reasonable position on finances.

Apols for my last sentence it was not clear.

What I meant was - perhaps you could suggest that you & your husband go together to a new financial advisor. You can bill it as getting fresh perspective on both your finances to make sure your assets are managed the best way possible.

It might be a slightly less confrontational way of getting disclosure.

Although, of course, he should want you to know his financial affairs without the intervention of a third party.

[missbopeep]

That kind of settlement seems highly in favour of the exW and completely outside what anyone would get in the UK, from my experience. If he has to be so generous that presumably means he is very wealthy, or he would not keep enough to support another family?

The 'ego' comment doesn't really stack up to me- why does it feed his ego to be so generous to his children ( up to 24!!!) yet he is so mean to his 2nd wife? If he gets a kick from being generous why doesn't that apply to you? The idea that he tots up the value of gifts, and 'makes you pay your way' with meals etc are not the actions of a kind man.

If you really look at your reasons for staying in the marriage, do you think they add up to everyone else being happier ( on the surface) but not you? Have you ever thought you are a 'people pleaser'? it's not your role to 'sort' this man out, and please anyone such as your in-laws. You should be pleasing YOU before anyone else.

Yes, you say you have grown a backbone, but who's to say you wouldn't have anyway without this man? You lived alone for 8 years so maybe your real issue is lack of appreciation of your own strengths?

I think what Twinkle was saying was that you could both go - together- to a financial advisor on the pretext of having a financial makeover, and in doing so DH would come clean about his income. So it would avoid out and out confrontation. But of course he most likely wouldn't agree to the appointment anyway, and he'd only disclose as much as he felt like. He couldn't be forced to disclose his earnings or savings.

[missbopeep]

x-d posts Twinkle!

[BoulevardOfBrokenSleep]

"..when "oh no this is MY treat" is said, then it usually means extremely generous sexual favors are expected in return. I've now taken to paying own cinema ticket..."

Seriously? That is really quite grim TBH. How does it make you feel?

[wordyBird]

Agree with Boulevard. That IS grim. :(

[Twinklestein]

I missed the OP's post @ 13:11 about 'sexual favours' --->

[Interestingchanges]

We had a lovely evening out yesterday and I was trying to keep an open mind, perhaps I'd been feeling low,,or something.
I'm starting to feel that either dh is on the aspergers spectrum or he must be a bit unhinged.
Money may just be symptomatic here, he's not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, I'd say we're comfortably off, so no need for penny pinching either. And yet that seems exactly IT!
It's like he's afraid that any unwarranted treats for me are a definite no-no and I must not be expecting them (I had suggested going out to concerts etc and treating each other to shared fun times instead of buying stuff, had read this in a magazine...). Then he says, Im glad you had a nice time, it was part of your birthday present (a month back), and I casually mentioned another, rather expensive event I had happily funded to set us off, and there was no reply. I.e. that means nothing (his bday coming up soon).
And please forgive me for appearing slightly gross now, but when we have sex he always wants to have me orgasm too, because otherwise it wouldn't be fair (I don't always want to and it seems to hang over him like an unpaid debt?!).
I always wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt because ex "cleaned him out". But after 4 years the problem is getting worse.
We have another counseling session in two weeks,,ill bring up this point and have the therapist deal with it.
Re his kids, he seems a lot tighter with them too atm, one gets pocket money from maintenance, the other from him.
I wonder again if there are control issues involved, he spoils them then takes splurging away for no known reason.
Keeps us all,on our toes I suppose.
I think I can safely bring this up on my own with him.
Will keep posting.

[missbopeep]

Oh dear OP :(

Look- one nice evening out does not cancel everything else that is going on. And blaming yourself for feeling low is really losing perspective on what is going on here. These are long term issues of trust and mean behaviour- nothing to do with your mood. It's about HIM and his behaviour.

I am experienced in working with people with Aspergers and tbh your DH doesn't fit the profile at all. Might you be trying to find excuses for his behaviour?

TBH I think sex is the least of your issues. Yes, his 'insistence' that you have an orgasm is odd ( as if you can just pop one out to please him), but it depends how he goes about it all- some women would be happy that their man was concerned about them being 'satisfied'- but if he makes it HIS goal regardless of how you are feeling then it's all about control again isn't it?

Don't start defending him on the basis of one pleasant evening out- you'd be a fool to do this and clearly you aren't.

[missbopeep]

I meant to ask- did your first marriage have issues of control and dominance? Did you have very low self esteem? Because you appear to be ever so tolerant of behaviour that is frankly very odd- like each paying for yourselves when you go out socially, and this tit-for-tat giving of gifts, or not, as the case may be. This is not how most married couples behave. Is there a chance you are setting the bar way too low in what you expect for yourself in a relationship? cos you are putting up with a whole load of crap.

[2rebecca]

If my husband insisted I have an orgasm I'd tell him they don't come to order and that although he meant well I found his approach controlling and likely to lead to fewer orgasms.
Your husband sounds really mean though. I couldn't have a relationship with someone who refused to spend money unless it was a present. Money is to be enjoyed. I'm not a spend thrift but your husband sounds rather joyless. I presume these financial issues weren't apparent before you got married.

[Interestingchanges]

Thanks for the moral support.

Dh had himself suggested he might have aspergers traits when I pulled him up on rude behaviour years ago. I told him then that it was bs and he should behave better. As his behaviour has not changed I was willing to entertain the possibility...

Yes, he's mean, and unfortunately not just with money.
I've read a bit on ea and the so called waiter- test, he has embarrassed me on countless occasions re waiters, cashiers and most recently my bank advisor. Looks down on our neighbours as working class, etc.

I noted his dc tended to bully my ds and it took some time to sort that one out (they are friends now that dad doesn't enable their bullying and my ds is made of sterner stuff then me anyway..).

Dh1 did treat me badly from day one, favoring his dsis (!) with respect and expensive presents with me an "also ran". I called it a day after 5 years when our home was but a hotel for him, remained single parent for 8 years. I met other men but lo and behold they didn't interest me.

Dh2 seemed so lovely, understanding and sensible when we met. Anything disturbing was made out to be ex fault (and she's so mad herself it was difficult not to believe him).
Therapist already pointed out that if it were true he was treated badly in his first marriage, he has clearly turned these methods onto me now.

After meeting mil, I do realize he was incredibly spoiled by her, became her mini spouse when their marriage turned sour (for appearance sake they're still together, but the passive aggressive atmosphere could on occasion be cut with a knife). She hated ex for not loving her son and using him, thinks I'm great because I look after him... Not that its appreciated in any way.

I was successful in pointing out that dh had been doing same to dsd and he finally relented and set boundaries. She is a changed person, very positive to me and has become more reflective in general. Unfortunately dh has become married to dss now... Same tactics, elevating child to adult status, putting me in my place. As I see this clearly now I react by ignoring him and doing my own thing and then he pouts for not getting to me.

God, that was long again.
Dh has no reason to grow up. Should we split he will be the victim and he will convince some other unfortunate of the horrible ex...

Ok, enough whingeing. I obviously know what's happening.
Thank you for your interest and asking the right questions to get me out of this apparent stupor. There is simply no way of tolerating his behaviour.
I'm not going to allow any abusive behaviour to go uncommented, I notice when I complain he mans up, but when I let things slide he's off again, all puffed up and entitled.

[missbopeep]

Maybe you are the type of person who also likes to control and sees him as a challenge and something that you can 'sort' ? I mean that in a kindly way- not a criticism!

You said something a few posts back about being optimistic that you could sort the marriage etc - but do you think that the flip side of that is not wanting to admit 'failure' and allowing your boundaries to be eroded in the process?

You see in all of this, there 's no Mr IC coming onto Dadsnet wanting advice on how to make his marriage better, and be a better H - it's you doing all the agonising and work.

Have you thought about making a list of all the reasons why YOU are still there- forget the kids and the MIL because they are just passive beneficiaries -it ought to be about your happiness first and foremost.
Unless this man makes you feel glad to be alive, respected, loved, happier, secure, more fulfilled, and just great to be with for most of the time, then there 's a big ???? over it all.

There's a good book- Should I Stay or Should I Go- might be worth reading.

[Interestingchanges]

Thanks for book tip, its downloading on iPad as I write!
As I had previously suspected dh of ea I already got the other Lundy Bancroft book. Brilliant.

You're right, its me working at the marriage, dh is happy. Thankfully therapist reminded him both partners need to be happy.

If I had to put a number on it, I'd say dh is 50% narcissist, we can have a wonderful time together but you can see in his face when he feels "inferior" to me in some vague way and will then say or do something stupid to offend me.
I am self sufficient, he's like a little boy needs looking after
I make friends easily, he has none (apart from a work colleague, his brother and son...), but then I actually like people!
I'm sensible, about money, long term plans etc, dh less so
Im a bit cautious in general, dh is a hedonist (own words) re sex, food, any kind of sensual pleasure (fine with me as long as nobody suffers, but all dc now hand over leftovers perhaps before they're even full as he makes a point of being hungry. I've tried stopping this nonsense but he really feels deprived, not greedy). When I'm being greedy (chocolate)I make a point of it and can laugh at myself

I hate blaming mothers (doh!) but mil is so terribly self centered and I can't fix dh, I can't give him the childhood he would have needed.
He's not an ogre, but I won't let him pull me down either.
Thanks again for book advice, will start reading.

[missbopeep]

When you stared this thread, it was all about money, mainly.
Now it's clear that although money is part of the problem ( or rather his attitude towards it), there are other aspects of his behaviour that are very troubling.

You must love him, otherwise why would you stay with a man who clearly has so many flaws and, from what you say here, is not coming over as a very nice person at all.

But even if you love him, what do you want and expect for yourself? It seems to be so very little and I feel hugely sad for you on the one hand and very angry on your behalf towards him on the other.

I've been married for decades, and my Dh has his faults, but if I were starting over again, this is what I'd want as an absolute minimum:
a man who was

• kind
  

-generous- with his time, emotions and yes, money.
-who cherished me and made me feel loved

• was my best friend and who I could rely on and turn to if I needed support
  

-was honest and hid nothing from me
-was fun to be with most of the time
-who gave me something more than what I could have with my girl friends or family.
-who didn't have issues or needed fixing in some way
-who was comfortable with who he was and understood himself

what about you? How far does your DH meet any of your needs or mine?!

[Interestingchanges]

This is exactly what I want in a partner too, as I know I can offer the same.
I saw I had made a mistake marrying dh1 as he made no bones about being selfish and acting like a bachelor from the get go.
Dh2 has shown me how kind and generous etc he can be, but then decides to stop, for reasons only known to him.
Ill copy your list as its easier to access then the book (already spotted his behaviour on page 1!)
I don't think he's comfortable with himself, resents me for how I feel about myself (and women have plenty of issues to occupy themselves without make input..) and in that one sentence have just described my parents marriage.
My mum was super confident and practical and a real no nonsense type, and my dad felt inadequate for words (but homed in on my mothers need for romance and friendship and refused her that). They stayed together for 40 years and before he died he acknowledged her guts and said he'd not have married another. I don't want to sit at my husbands deathbed to hear that...

[missbopeep]

If your DH can be kind and generous when he wants to be ( presumably to get some kind of power trip from it) then pulls the rug from under you and his children when he doesn't want to be nice- another form of control over people- then he's not worth bothering with. Really.

It's all about his ego. Why waste your life with someone like that? You are worth so much more.

[nkf]

I was married to a man very similar to the way you have described your DH. You sound as if you are getting clarity on the relationship. Keep thinking. Keep asking yourself questions. One day you will know what to do for everyone's best.

[Interestingchanges]

Clarity is right!
Back again for update after consulting my solicitor this morning.
In this country (EU) a husband/wife is allowed not to disclose earnings, simply to support a partner should the need arise.
Re house Im pretty safe in that should I divorce it won't be taken from me, but I'll have to pay him off, how much depends on good will of either party or judge can decide. I was told to leave him play silly buggers as I'm definitely in the stronger position here and to come back only if dh decides on some other clear demand that can be legally formulated.
Basically its not a legal issue, its a question of character... And this from a neutral party (!).
I'm doing well with the Bancroft book, there's an online guide for men, I think I'll print it out for him, we re going for a short holiday next week, just the two of us, to my home town, so no special sights or attractions and plenty of time for discussion and soul searching.

[Twinklestein]

I'm not sure the legality of disclosing earnings is relevant, it may be legal there, it may even be legal here I've no idea, but it's a massive spoke in the wheel of your relationship if he won't be open & honest with you, but expects full disclosure from you.

How much would you have to 'pay him off' if you divorced and on what grounds?

And what will happen to your sister's loan if you divorce?

[Interestingchanges]

Hi twinkle,
I've known my solicitor for years (he wrote my airtight prenup for first time round...) and he was most circumspect and polite but also clearly saying dh is an a*se for treating me like this. He probably sees me as attracting total douchbags but will kindly continue to protect my interests...
The payoff should be decided between ourselves primarily but based on initial house cost (without improvements) share/ amount on loan paid back.
Grounds? My point exactly! I asked for first divorce but had to legally shoulder half the blame, dh1 insisted on this even though both of us could have left it as irreconcilable differences... Probably same if I go through with it (don't want to yet, though).
I guaranteed my dsis loan so I would pay her back whatever happens.
Have thought to ask dh to repay loan for him, but feel that would put him out, as it would be MY home then, not OURS. And no doubt he'd sulk then too... Still its an option I'd be willing to go for.