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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Counselling, Anger management, domestic abuse, children, happy families

19 replies

Heather2013 · 14/07/2013 21:34

Please help! Ive been with partner for 4years and we have a 2yr old and a 7 month old. We settled down in a rush when got pregnant - didn't really know each other well enough (in hindsight) but were happy. The little ones are just great so in many ways I (we) are happy. Or we should be... Our whole domestic arena has become a battlefield. When first child was still baby, I realised that partner had terrible temper, when put fist through wall. I thought it was just "one off" and he apologised (he had been drinking) and we just carried on as normal. Several similar "incidents" have ensued, and the relationship has stumbled on with good times interspersed with really bad ones. I'm not perfect, I have put pressure on him for lots of things like helping around the house (he is one of those pampered boys that can barely do anything for himself - and takes great umbridge if he "attempts" something and is told of a better way to do it - no matter how nicely.) In my opinion all he wants to do is watch tv, sit about reading comics, prioritise "fun" over all practical domestic tasks. I feel like he is a big child and I also feel enslaved to look after him, the house, children, etc.
So we went for counselling. After a couple of sessions the counsellor suggested looking into the domestic abuse side of things. I wasn't really bothered about labelling it as such. Prior to going, partner was saying that he would own up to the anger and temper issues. I really thought that would help, as things now seem to just flare up at the drop of a hat. The counsellor said that there was abuse, that we were both doing it to each other, and recommended putting a "safety plan" into place. We both have a slightly different cycle that we get into during these arguments (he- angry me-upset). The plan was to take responsibility for ourselves by noticing when we were feeling angry/upset, giving a signal to the other and going to a place where we could be until we were ok again. So far so good. I was in my safety plan on the first night, and the second, and several more times too. He just didn't go. He was still getting angry, though. Shouting, arguing, slagging me off and being generally horrible. Week after week he would go back to the counselling and be quite plausible - he didn't understand, excuse after excuse. Last tuesday morning, after he lashed out banging a table, I put my safety plan to action. He was angry and interrupted me and started shouting at me. Both children also there. He said he was going out. (I had just told him I was taking one child for appointment so needed him to take other one.) So I said if you're going then don't bother coming back. As I said, I was in my "cycle", and so was he. He phoned on thursday (not to ask how i was - to ask to collect stuff). Met him on Friday - ended in argument - he keeps clinging on to me having to take responsibility for my part (and even when I say I do - he just refuses to talk about his anger). He gets furious and pretends he is perfectly calm when obviously seething. Phoned today saying he wants to come back but when I was firm about needing to get professional help he got really angry on the phone. (And btw he has told me many times I need professional help!) He can't go back to the counselling as he "broke the agreement" by not attending. He says he will be more easy-going and will do something about his anger but I don't believe a word of it - he point blank refuses to even acknowledge when he is angry. Basically- what do I do - I really want to play happy families, there is no-one else and we have many strengths to our relationship - he is just angry, moody and bad tempered with very little reason. But he will not face it head on - he still thinks it's all my fault - "no wonder" is his standard response if I point out he is angry.
Thanks anyone who reads this - I would love a bit of support here,

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 14/07/2013 21:45

Playing happy families with an aggressive, abusive, manipulative man is a really bad idea. As is counselling. As you've discovered, this type are quite capable of saying all the right things but have no intention of changing their behaviour. It's pointless and dangerous

Keep this man well away from you at all costs. Drop all contact and don't take his calls because he seems to use the opportunity simply to carry on with the abuse. Get friends and family around you for support and, should he approach you directly, call the police. It's that serious.

If you want to take counselling further - for yourself rather than him - you might benefit from the Freedom Programme which is aimed at victims of domestic abuse.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore · 14/07/2013 21:47

You want to play happy families, but it ISN'T a happy family.

He says he will be more easy-going and will do something about his anger but I don't believe a word of it - he point blank refuses to even acknowledge when he is angry.**

That really tells you the situation, doesn't it? He's talking a good game, but he's not sincere. Counselling is not working, and it sounds like things are escalating.

Reread your post. What would you say to one of your friends if they were in this position?

Personally, I'm a bit puzzled by your counsellor saying that you're both abusive. It sounds like he is. I can't say that you being upset qualifies as abuse. See a different counsellor - alone. Joint counselling for abusive situations is generally not a good idea.

thecatfromjapan · 14/07/2013 21:47

OK. There is lots to say but I just want to start with one thing.

It may just be me, and my own issues, but I have a terrible "tingling" feeling as I read your post about what the Relate counsellor said.

Obviously, I don;t know you from Adam, and I haven't been in your home, witnessing an argument, nor even sat in on one of your sessions.

But

I wonder if Relate have a tendency to apportion "blame", responsibility "equally", in a way which can occasionally mis-describe the situation and even be a bit dangerous for women?

So that is my one thing.

Just to add: I think the consensus, derived I believe from research, is that abusive partners can "get better" but only if they put an enormous amount of work into it. Here's the thing: even this little bit of counselling-lite seems to have demonstrated that you are willing to do work, he is (a lot) less willing.

You can't do it all yourself - sadly.

thecatfromjapan · 14/07/2013 21:49

I'm afraid I really agree with the two posts just below the last one I posted.

I'm going to put my cards on the table: I think Relate are quite poor in the way they treat domestic abuse situations. In my (limited) experience, they are actually quite risky (for women, mainly).

CogitoErgoSometimes · 14/07/2013 21:50

"The counsellor said that there was abuse, that we were both doing it to each other...."

The counsellor was talking out of his arse. Domestic violence often starts with the first child & it is entirely the fault of the abuser. 'Me - upset' is not abusive behaviour. However upset you are and however imperfect you are, you did not cause it and you not deserve to be on the receiving end of aggressive, angry and violent (a fist through a wall?) behaviour. The counsellor was irresponsible, unprofessional and quite wrong therefore to blame you, the victim, for the aggression of your abuser.

thecatfromjapan · 14/07/2013 21:55

By the way, this worried me:

"I'm not perfect, I have put pressure on him for lots of things like helping around the house (he is one of those pampered boys that can barely do anything for himself - and takes great umbridge if he "attempts" something and is told of a better way to do it - no matter how nicely.)"

It is OK to ask a partner to do their share in the home/family. Of course, in an ideal world, you wouldn't have to ask. But hey ho.

It is not "putting pressure on" to ask.

It is "putting pressure on" to not do something again and again, and to do so little, that you have to be asked, again, and again.

It is not adult to act in a way that avoids the responsibility and labour of being an adult and a parent.

It is not adult to make another person responsible for you taking on what are your responsibilities.

It is bullying to respond to reasonable requests with aggressive resistance.

It is also a way of wearing another person down, and avoiding being asked again, to make it so unpleasant when asked that the other will not ask again/will not ask for more.

Seriously, in that one sentence you have demonstrated how far the boundaries have already moved in you relationship. And just how much work is going to have to go on to make them move back.

mcmooncup · 14/07/2013 21:58

Stop going to that counsellor immediately.

They clearly have very limited understanding of abusive relationships.

Then LTB

EhricLovesTeamQhuay · 14/07/2013 22:11

Responding to abusive behaviour with anger, verbal attacks or even physical attacks doesn't actually make you an abuser. It can be part of the survival mechanisms (conning yourself that you aren't being abused because you 'fight back')
It's rare that a couple abuse each other equally. Abusive dynamics don't really work like that. But non abusive people can respond to abuse with abusive behaviours themselves when pushed.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 14/07/2013 22:14

The only 'abusive' behaviour the OP demonstrated was to get upset. I'm horrified that any counsellor should even suggest this was equal to fists going through walls.

thecatfromjapan · 14/07/2013 22:24

OP, I've p.m.-ed you. (It's a little envelope icon towards the top right-hand corner of the page.)

NothingsLeft · 14/07/2013 22:39

You need Lundy Bancrofts book - 'Why does he do that' and a new relationship therapist that understands abuse. They are out there. We used these people when DH and I had similar issues.

They were very clear DH's behaviour was avusive and mine pretty typical of the abused. They didn't recommend anymore couples sessions but did recommend DZh enrol in an abusive men program which is working wonders.

I know how hard it is to be heard with abusive people but you don't need to put up with this.

Heather2013 · 14/07/2013 22:45

Thanks - you are good guys!
Yeah, I wasn't really sure about the abuse thing on both sides. She didn't really explain it and we never got far enough cos partner couldn't do the safety plan. I think it is name-calling (calling him a teenager, child, stupid etc) and put-downs which I am not proud of.
What happens is that I get upset, and i try to discuss it and I'm desperate for him to see my side and he is obviously totally uncaring about how I feel (except when it comes to "diagnosing" me). Then after a while of him being angry, I get angry with him for how he has made me feel, because I don't think he has any right to get angry with me as I do so much for him.
Of course in my opinion he is much more abusive, as he is frequently in a bad mood and angry about absolutely nothing, and it is always my fault. He calls me horrible names and is very derogatory about me. He shouts, uses his intimidating physical presence and throws things, kicks things, bangs things, punches things etc. He continually tells me it's because I am rude, but when I think back about it I usually don't think I was rude at all. I am expected to be a servant, a 1950s housewife smiling and serving up dinner and doing all the housework and cooking and washing all the many clothes which he changes several times a day!
Anyway, I didn't really mind that - I want to get better, too, and I know that I haven't always had the ability to walk away from arguments, but have fought my corner and sometimes lost control of myself too. I thought maybe it would encourage partner to feel less of a perpetrator, and less "got at" in the process, which can only be a good thing, can't it?
Can the individual counsellor make so much difference - if we had a different one could it have gone better? me and partner are both "blamers", so is thinking that just looking for a scapegoat?
Thanks so much for replies, it really makes me feel better. xxx

OP posts:
CogitoErgoSometimes · 14/07/2013 22:53

"He shouts, uses his intimidating physical presence and throws things, kicks things, bangs things, punches things etc."

This is a violent, physically aggressive reaction and it's completely intolerable. He is a nasty piece of work, a bully trying to control you through fear, and it has nothing to do with any aspect of your behaviour whatsoever. Please stay well away from this man from now on and forget any ideas of reconciliation for reasons of your own safety.

I'm glad you don't walk away from an argument but stand up for yourself. That's not a failing in the slightest. If a man feels 'got at' because you are assertive and refuse to be his servant, that is entirely his problem, not something you have to address. Your partner doesn't 'feel a perpetrator', he is a perpetrator. If you were a meek, mild, submissive kind of person he would have behaved towards you in exactly the same way.

If you have individual counselling, it will help you understand all these things. His behaviour was neither your fault nor your responsibility.

Lweji · 14/07/2013 22:58

I thought maybe it would encourage partner to feel less of a perpetrator, and less "got at" in the process, which can only be a good thing, can't it?

Not really, because he'll feel validated in his abusive behaviour.
And so he'll continue doing it.

The only thing that has actually reached to exH has been for me to take no shit with him.
It has also meant splitting, but at least I have been free from his abuse at home, and he's also more controlled.

Sometimes the best thing is to let go.
You can't win with these men. Meaning you can't change them, and you can't live with them.

AliceDoesntLiveHereAnymore · 14/07/2013 23:37

If you were a meek, mild, submissive kind of person he would have behaved towards you in exactly the same way.***

This. Exactly. Do not take responsibility for his behaviour. It is down to him alone.

You are better off without him. And what's even more important, you are SAFER without him.

Darkesteyes · 15/07/2013 00:41

As soon as i clicked on this thread i KNEW it was going to involve another bad counsellor.

Page 10 of this thread has some horrific experiences too.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1795884-Not-really-sure-what-just-happened-with-DH?pg=10

Darkesteyes · 15/07/2013 00:45

Anyone else feel an MN campaign coming on because this is something Relate really needs to address.
How about getting a representative from there for an MN chat.

Darkesteyes · 15/07/2013 00:46

Sorry for the hijack OP NONE of his behaviour or vilolence is your fault or your responsibility.

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