Is this worrying? Or am I being over sensitive?

[BlingLoving]

I have real concerns about SIL's relationship with her bf. There are lots of examples of his behaviour being selfish/inconsiderate but I don't know if it's as serious as I think so... opinions please.

This weekend was DS' birthday and we planned a bbq long in advance. SIL arrived but her bf did not because apparently he had to make a trip to somewhere an hour away to buy new tires for his car. SIL was obviously a bit embarassed but was justifying his decision. Also, he then kept texting her asking her to look up various bits of information (he has an iphone too so could also have done it). He turned up after we'd eaten. [Incidentally, I had said to DH ahead of time I thought he wouldn't turn up. Because this has happened before. It feels very passive aggressive to me]

Later, he is on the phone with a designer furniture place to buy a £120 chair (reduced from £150). He is legally bankrupt and has a minimum wage job so the decision is taken that him and SIL will pay half each. But it goes on her card. Later she tells me that she doesn't see why they need a £120 chair when they don't have a lot of money and a very small flat but that she feels that it can't always be her making all the decisions about stuff just because she has more money.

There are always incident after incident like this. And SIL expresses concern, but then immediately backs down because she has been told repeatedly by her family, and now by bf, that she is really hard work and doesn't accomodate people. So she feels she can't complain.

Are my alarm bells justified?

He spends her money, because he should be allowed to, because she earns more than him? Erm, no. I don't like the sound of this chap at all.

Thanks OldLady. I don't know what to do. I love SIL and get on very well with her. But this idea that hse's a terrible girlfriend and 90% responsible for every problem in her relationships is so entrenched that it's impossible to talk to her.

Her family have a lot to answer for.

The thing is, the realisation that he's a turd has to come from her. She can't see she's being abused, because she's being abused.

Would she look at this book if you gave it to her?

I think this is a huge red flag - champagne tastes on a beer wage - not good - its speaks of entitled, grandiose behaviour (narcissistic traits). I would be very wary of a man who has been made bankrupt or has loads of debt on cards and does not seem to have learned anything from it. That's another red flag btw - the inability to learn from previous mistakes.

Running errands instead of attending a pre-planned bbq and spoiling your SIL's fun by dragging her into it is very selfish and that's yet another red flag! Hope she bins him.

OldLady - it's tempting but for reasons I don't want to go into here, no, I couldn't give it to her. Intellectually, she knows this stuff. But emotionally she's used to being seen as the person who is unreasonable.

Northwitch, I think I might use the phrase Champagne Taste on a Beer wage in a light hearted way next time it comes up. It's a good one and makes the point clearly. I also like the point about him not being able to learn from mistakes. The problem is that he does not consider himself responsible for his bankruptcy (long story) but I could make the point that not being watchful caused problems before.

Argh. this is eating me up.

OP the trouble is until your SIL becomes aware that he has the problem and not her it is going to be very difficult to make her see the reality of the situation - even when women in abusive relationships learn about the traits of narcissists etc., they still make excuses and look for the areas where their partner seems normal - it's hard to make them understand when they don't know what they're dealing with.

If he is a narcissist (or has those tendencies without full blown NPD) he will not take responsibility for his mistakes and will usually blame someone else for it and repeat the behaviour - that's why it's a red flag when someone does not learn from past errors or continues to do things that their partner is not happy about (a normal person will make changes).

If you joke about his overspending it might just miss the target and he'll think you're jealous or something. I would try and raise your SIL's self esteem and reinforce to her that she is not being the difficult one. Would she try some counselling do you think? If her self belief rises she may start seeing her BF for what he is.

I would never joke about finances in front of him. Disaster waiting to happen! But SIL and I do talk so maybe I could work it in there to make her think about it?

She has had counselling before. I think a lot of that was around accepting that she can be quite high maintenance and demanding. But I feel like it's gone too far the other way now. Maybe I can convince her to go back but for various reasons I think it's unlikely - she is a psychologist herself. Needless to say, like doctors tend to be the ones ignoring symptoms or HR people are terrible at managing people, psychologists seem to have problems dealing with their own issues.

Red flag re the finances - sure.
Red flag because he didn't want to attend a child's birthday party- no.

(in the nicest possible way I look for every excuse under the sun not to attend random relatives' organised "do's")

What does your husband think? (presuming she is his sister?)

Maybe you can convince her that being high maintainence and demanding is not always a bad thing and can be a good thing at times. There is a time and place for most things.

I think you will not be thanked for poking your nose in, don't judge just support.

She doesn't sound that demanding to me - she lets him buy a chair she doesn't want because she wants to try and be fair with him - that seems like she is trying to be considerate. Even if she is high maintenance that does not excuse her bf for being so selfish - he sounds very manipulative.

As she is a psychologist I would have thought SIL would have been familiar with the different abusive types and the check list of identifiable traits - maybe it's harder to see when you are in a relationship and your emotions are involved.

Actually, having just reread, he is working, albeit for a "minimum wage job". Presumably they've been together a while if they have a house and are buying chairs together.....and presuming the chair went on her card because he can't get one as a bankrupt.....he will pay for his half of it as far as we know......

So, er, on reflection, yes, I think you need to butt out tbh.

They live together, don't own a house. He moved into her flat. She pays all the bills and he gives her money. Or at least, that's how it's supposed to work. I think he does give her money but it's a flat amount and any extras she picks up. Which I was always fine about, until he started making financial decisions like buying expensive chairs or tires for his car. Those are things he's happy to spend money on, but she had to pay for some dental work a few months back...

I couldn't care less if he comes to DS' party or not for myself. But, it was important to her and they had agreed to come together months ago. I'd be pretty upset with DH if the day of my niece's birthday he suddenly announced he wasn't coming after all.

He is buying expensive stuff they don't need while on a low wage and your SIL feels pressurised into agreeing - this is not good - especially from someone who has been made bankrupt before. He knows that she is regarded as high maintenance and this is one of her 'buttons' and it sounds like he is pushing on it to get his own way.

He backs out of agreed plans and pesters your SIL while she is at your party which sounds very passive aggressive - almost like he didn't want her to have fun or something just because he wasn't.

Red flags all over this guy - unfortunately until she sees them there's not much you can do.

I'm not sure about whether or not this constitutes 'abuse' of any kind tbh. Sometimes people just aren't very nice, are selfish, greedy, thoughtless or rude. Not all behavior can be pathologised as a personality disorder or 'tendencies' because we ALL exhibit some behavior at some time that could be found in diagnostic criteria for personalilty disorders. Some people are just not very nice people and it does sound like ur SIL needs to decide for herself what she's willing to tolerate.

Northwitch, you have it right. On both your later posts. But as you say, she has to see it for herself. And needs to build up her own confidence first. I'm working on that. but it's a losing battle sometimes. And yes, I think it's totally PA - he has form for this kind of behaviour in terms of not turning up because of some crisis, then hounding her while she's with us. Which is strange because when he's actually with us, he's great. but I do think there's a strong element of making sure he is always at the forefront of her mind. There are other examplse where he gets upset if she works or exercises rather than spending time with him.

She's an amazing woman. Put herself through university in very challenging circumstances. Is incredibly supportive of me and DH and quite frankly I am not sure what I would have done when DS was born without her. She has changed her life and her attitude completely in the 10 years I've known her and I am so proud of her. So seeing this kind of thing just enrages me.

I think she needs to know when you think her feelings are right and justified, as she has lost confidence in herself. If a similar things occurs, like the chair, where she's questioning his spending, strongly underline her feelings as valid and reasonable, and keep repeating that Champagne tastes phrase.

If she feels someone is on her side, she'll gain a bit of confidence.

Also, if you can let her know how fantastic she has been when ds was born, and anything else, it will give her a boost.

With luck, in time you'll be able to introduce the idea that she deserves better....

Thanks Jux. I do all that already and will keep at it. I think because I do, she does tell me a bit more honestly how she feels. I get the sense that she is uncomfortable admitting these feelings to most people because she's so certain that she's wrong.

I'm with mrsdrew I think. I'm not sure it's abuse but he sounds like a bit of a turd and people can be attracted to turds.There are similar issues in my family with my bil. He sponges and spends, goes for long periods without a job, finds one then looks for excuses to quit. When out of work he drinks saying he's depressed. When in work he drinks, saying his job is getting to him. He and my sister both now avoid pretty much most family things stating that it's the family that are the problem, not my bil. They tried for 10 years for a baby with him telling anyone who would listen, except my sister, that he doesn't actually want a child because he likes their lifestyle as it is. Now they are trying for adoption having spent thousands on ivf and again he has told every member of my family except my sister that he doesn't want to adopt. He's a lovely guy when you speak to him face to face, which sounds like a complete contradiction I know, but his behaviour is utterly shit. He was physically abused as a child too, though claims it has had no long term damage to him. His dad is an utter shit and I put many of his problems down to him. Sorry to hijack.

That sounds awful Matana. I don't really care whether it's abuse or not because either way, it's not acceptable and she's not happy, even if she can't admit it. Whether he's an abusive twit or just a complete knobhead, either way, he's behaving badly and i wish that she could see that.

Sigh.

Yes, i agree it's not acceptable Bling. The trouble is she needs to come to that conclusion on her own or no amount of involvement from you will change that. Sadly, many people are too afraid to be on their own or for whatever reason they never reach that conclusion. My sister is one of them. I cannot for the life of me see why she has persisted and fought for so long. She is deeply unhappy i fear and is such a lovely woman that she deserves more from life. She has thrown everything into her relationship for such a long time that there is no way back for her, and equally she has no room or energy left for anybody other than her H. And that includes herself. He sponges financially, emotionally, mentally and she is constantly worried about him and how he will react in family situations. So, so unhealthy. The saving grace is that it sounds like your sil is in a relatively 'new' relationship? If so, she might be persuaded not to become 'one of those people' who stick with it purely because they've invested too much time and energy in it to find the strength to leave. All you can do is try to help her see that i'm afraid, but ultimately it is her choice. Sorry.

I agree with Mantana and Bling It's unacceptable behavior. I was making the point about the fact that so often on MN people start talking about 'abuse' when its often just someone being a horrible arse. NPD or 'narc tendencies' also seem to be bandied about a lot. Personality disorders are psychiatric diagnoses and to meet the criteria several pervasive problems in several areas of that persons life need to be met. I see a lot of threads where abuse is occurring and some where it seems likely that there is a PD but for many more, it isn't. Being a selfish and thoughtless prick does not mean someone has NPD. Some people are just pricks!!