If you lost your virginity before the age of 16..............

[THERhubarb]

Can I just ask, was it something you did willingly? Was your partner older than you or the same age and do you regret it now?

I guess this is leading on from the other thread about when people lost their virginity.

My dd is 12, nearly 13 and according to that thread, some posters were having sex at 13. I know this happens today too but I just wondered at the circumstances really.

Sorry, it's 4:30am for me and I'm sleepy and missed the whole point of the tread being before 16.

I'm sure that's OK Rafaella. I was 23 too BTW - about right I reckon, though it all depends on the person.

I was 15, and one of the last in my circle of friends shockingly enough! I was coerced into it in hindsight, called frigid etc and basically gave in to the pressure and regretted in massively.

My mum was very depressed at the time and simply didn't take much notice of where I was or who I was with.

I had just turned 14, he was nearly 17. As I said on the previous thread, I don't regret it. We were together for nearly two years - though thinking about it, it may have been closer to 18 months? - and it was a good relationship. He used to meet me off the school bus every Friday with a single rose :)

After him, there was a guy in the year above me at school, who I fancied for YEARS. A few casual things... First truly had my heart broken at 16 by a guy it turned out was sleeping with my (older) friend as well - he was nearly ten years older than me. We're friends again now, actually, it's nice. Then a few guys around my own age... A few relationships, a few casual FWB...

I don't regret having sex so young. It felt right at the time, we were great friends as well as a couple. The 'quality' of the sex would now be debated, but that's first times for you - it got better

Oh, and if anything, I pressured him without meaning to - he thought I was already active, because I ''seemed to know what I was doing''! So he went along with it because he thought he should... Felt really bad when he admitted that to me about six months in, though he said he didn't regret it, and we were able to laugh about it later on :)

I was 15 had been with my boyfriend for 6 months, all planned and consensual.

We're still together 12 years on :)

I was 14, he was 16. We weren't going out together and he told me we could if I had sex with him. We didnt end up going out and he treated me like shit. This pattern continued throughout my life and is still occurring at 37. I saw (see) sex as a bargaining tool and a symbol of my worth.

Rhubarb - i have read the whole thread, and do recognise that not every post was an older boy and a younger girl! The considerable majority are though, right?

LEM mentions that girls mature physically more quickly than boys, but emotional maturity happens MUCH more quickly in girls than boys (in fact, the awareness of emotional maturity probably happens even more quickly).

I'd suggest this then makes it much more likely that a girl is going to relate to an older boy/man better on an emotional level than someone her own age (even if she's not actually as emotionally aware as she thinks she is).

I'm not suggesting these girls are to blame for then being coerced - far from it - the male in these situations should always take the bulk of responsibility, due to the balance of power being in his favour.

As a parent, i think all you can do is make your children aware of these differences, physical and emotional, make them aware of which situations they need to be careful of, and make them aware of the consequences of any decisions they might make.

DiscontinuedModelHusband, unfortunately the truth is more complicated. We may appear to mature quicker but actually we are not. A case in point in my own dd and her friends who are all aged 12 to 13. They wear fashionable clothes, padded bras, talk about boys, write essays on child slavery, can cook meals, are responsible for younger children, can be independent, confident and know about sex. But these girls also sleep with their teddies still, some still suck their thumbs at night, they still love to play on the swings and slides when no-one is watching, they still would spend their pocket money on sweets given half a chance, they watch Doctor Who through their fingers and still play childish games like shops, hospitals and schools.

Older boys may see these girls as emotionally and physically mature but that is just a myth.

It's the same from what I see of boys. They hang around shops, they wear their trousers halfway down their arses, they might take up smoking or drinking, they pretend they don't care about girls whilst doing their best to look cool but get them on their own, without their mates and they are still just little boys.

At the heart of all of our teenagers lie little boys and girls who are just that. No more. It is society and the media who would have our children grow up way before their time. The prevalance of porn, the acceptance of women as sex symbols in music videos, the obsession with the way women look and are shaped, the chat in girls mags and newspapers of sex and scandal, the encouragement to sleep around (Sex and the City, et al), the soaps which sail close to the wind and bring disturbing storylines into our living rooms ways before the watershed.

All of these things directly impact our kids, putting them under pressure to conform, to be the person that others want them to be.

I don't just blame older men, I blame society for turning a blind eye, for portraying women and girls as seducers. You said it yourself, we are more "emotionally and physically mature". That is the excuse many men use.

It is just that. An excuse.

God, THERhubarb, that post could just make me bawl.

Don't worry about discontinuedhusband though. I wrote him off when he opened his post with a PA whine about "being shouted down". Nothing he said about boys not all rampantly rushing into sex with unwilling partners went remotely against the grain of the rest of the thread. Yet he started from a position of whiney victimhood.

So I don't give a fuck about him, because a. he hasn't read what everyone else has said properly, in other words, as typical, devaluing women's speech; and b. "shouting down" is a phrase used to discredit women speaking at all, as usual, taking the position that women speaking at all is in some way "silencing" men, when the opposite is statistically true.

curryeater - the opening to that post was in preparation for a slightly different point than the one i actually made. it wasn't very carefully worded, and read in a more abrasive manner. i then changed it without changing the first sentence. I agree it wasn't the best way to open - apologies.

I have read the whole thread, carefully and am not trying to devalue anyone's opinion.

I actually fully agree with the OP that social conditioning is absolutely to blame for the early sexualisation of our children.

I wasn't trying to provide a counterpoint to the OP, merely confirm that doubt and anxiety are likely just as common in boys as girls at that age.

I'll admit i could have made that point less clumsily!

I didn't but several of my friends did and did not regret it. Then again, 15 was, and is, age of consent where we lived, so they were not doing anything illegal and were with boys their own age.

Totally agree with curryeater:

"I don't see why the law should change just because there are some positive experiences under 16.
If a couple of two 15 year olds, loving and mature, have consensual sex, the law is not going to get involved.
If they were thinking about having sex but don't because of the law - who cares? What harm done?
If a 36 year old man is stopped from taking advantage of a 15 year old girl because of the law, then good."

What therubarb says about 12-13 girls is so so true, my 12y loves to play at being grown up, but is still a child. She still cares too much about what peer pressure and what her friends are doing to think of her as grown up.

The difference between her and her 15y sister is huge and her sister has matured a lot in the last six months.

I hope she doesn't choose to have sex for a long time, but I can see that DD1 is getting to the point I would believe it was her choice, not the boys and peer pressure.

I'm not sure I will believe that for DD2 before she's 21

so sad that consent/'virginity' (what an awful word) is only measured by penetration.

I guess you may be lesbian an never 'lose' your virginity then. I have not had penetrative sex with a man until I was 19. We had been together for a year. I was totally prepared for it. Before that I have had (since the age of 13/14) mutual masturbation/oral sex/lots of different experience. I am not sure whether I was 'ready' or not for those. I consented to them and with boys of similar age but they were not all enjoyable.

I was totally disappointed about the big fuss about 'my' virginity. I liked it. It was very tender, but just one thing more to add with the additional risk of pregancy (AIDS/STDS were not a topic at the time but many other practices I had engaged in would have been risky on that front).

I hope I will teach my kids the different risks associated to different practices and I hope I will never speak about their 'virginities'

I guess my point is that human beings are sexual beings from very early and all is fine as long as they respect their own bodies and the bodies of others. When there is a big gap in age/maturity or one of the parties feels coerced directly or indirectly the practice is wrong.

This applies to 'playing doctors' if you are 6 years old, to penetration and a wide variety of sexual practices.

Good point camaleon. I personally find the ideal of BJs repulsive and really quite degrading. It's odd as you say, how you can perform sex acts and yet still be a virgin.

In the eyes of the law though, it's still a crime for underage children to perform sex acts thank god.

This is what frightens me more today though and that has more to do with the prevalance and availability of porn. Many studies have shown that young women feel under more pressure to 'perform' and do things they are not comfortable with either because of the demands of their boyfriends or because they've seen online porn and think that it's the norm.

Even if I teach my children to respect themselves and others, even if I keep a close eye on their internet usage, even if I am open with them about sex I can't control who they hang around with, who they choose to date and what external pressures they are put under.

The studies horrify me as attitudes towards sex seem to be changing and it's not for the better. Children who have not seen porn or been subject to inappropriate behaviour online may well be in the minority.

I don't think children are naturally sexual beings. Quite the opposite actually. I think we view children with adult heads. There may be curiosity about their own and other's bodies from an early age but I don't think that is naturally related to sexually, just childish curiosity.

We have forced children into sexuality from an early age. Without any outside influences I think you would find that children would be happy, carefree innocents for a lot lot longer.

Therhubarb, it depends how we define sexuality. I have two children who, for instance, have never shown an interest in touching themselves. I have even thought of opening a thread about this after reading how normal is 'masturbation' in very young children and I think it was part of my own childhood.
I would say children are 'sexual' all along, as they obtain pleasure from their bodies which derives from very specific sensations. But I am more than happy to call it differently at different ages.
And no, you cannot protect your children. You can only pass on to them as much information and reference points to find more suitable information.

And what happens when a 12/13 years old has 'sex' with a 5/6 years old? I have been witness of this kind of situation too. Do we assumed that because the age of consent is 16, the 12/13 years old does not understand the situation of power/ the nature of the acts?
Would you consider the 12/13 years old in that scenario as a victim? I think this is very complicated indeed and can only be looked at case by case. At the same time the law needs to set a general limit and that is good. I would not like a law depending on unpredictable judicial decisisions

camaleon I remember a very horrible episode once on Mumsnet where my little boy was called a freak after I responded on one such thread how he showed no interest in touching himself. I was rounded on by a fair few posters and I must admit, it was one of the few times that I came away in tears, largely because it concerned my son and questioned my role as a parent. Such is the power of sisterhood at times

In my personal experience, children derive comfort from many sensations and I believe it is wrong to associate those sensations with sexuality. For example, a child might get comfort from sucking his or her own toes, or from massaging their own heads (as my son would do) or from rubbing themselves. For them it is a nice sensation that has no other meaning attached to it. For us, because their private parts are different to their mouths, their heads, their hands, etc we associate it in other ways. Children do not.

I believe a child who does touch themselves down there are no more sexual than a child who sucks their thumb.

And yes I agree with you that you cannot protect your children, you can only hope that the information you give them, the confidence, the respect, the guidance etc is enough because I get the feeling that they are under much more pressure than we all were - or soon will be.

camaleon, in that situation both children are victims. A 12/13 does not have sex with a 5/6 year old without there being a greater problem. Same as murder. Look at the Jamie Bulger case. They were only 10? They were victims too of their parents, of a society which failed them.

Where to draw the line between victim and perpetrator? Is there one? An adult who has been abused can sometimes go on to abuse themselves but then another adult with a similar pattern of abuse may make the choice not to. Making choices is the key and where are you responsible for that? When do you actively start making choices?

I guess it differs from case to case; from child to child.

I don't agree with your assessment of what sexuality is for 'under 16' or whatever age we want to. But your points would be as valid as mine I think.

However, I wanted to highlight that perhaps the first thing to do is to remove the importance of 'virginity', mainly for girls. Stop the consideration of sex as something dominated by what happens with a penis. I am not sure the world is worse now than 30 years ago either in terms of pressure on women and sex. I much prefer my daughter to be in the generation she is in, without the pressure to 'keep or lose' something to a man that is just a very small part of her body (and physically does not get lost anyway).

As many posters have said I don?t know if it?s about age as much as context.

I lost mine to a boy the same age as me when I was 16. It was fine- not exactly amazing but nice and not scarring or upsetting.

I then swiftly embarked on a relationship with a 31 year old man when I was 17. It wasn?t my first sexual experience but my 2nd time and the relationship went on for almost five years. That was not okay and very scarring. The law couldn?t have protected me from that and I did consent. I however don?t think I had the ability to really consent to his wishes, because I was young and he was persuasive, abusive, a bit of a Svengali and had fourteen years on me. You can?t legislate for that unfortunately.

I would much rather that I had been involved in illegal sex with another 13 year old when I was that age than what eventually happened to me. The fact that it was legal hasn?t made it any easier to deal with.

I was 15 and willing, drunk at a party with a boy who was in my year at school who was also drunk. On the bathroom floor classy i know
I don't regret it though, as someone else said upthread, i just wanted to get it over with.

By 16 I was in a relationdhip and very sexually active with him even though my parents thought I wasn't.

I think I was still sleeping with my teddies at 15...

It's very sad that young girls just want to get it all over with.

camaleon, yes I agree with your point about virginity. It's an old fashioned notion which has no real relevance anymore (although in feminist studies I was told that the penis was like a knife which entered through the woman's open wound (her vagina) and stabbed her repeatedly. The hymen breaking symbolised the murder of her 'self'. Oh yes, that really helped me to combat my fear of sex!)