am I being assertive or unreasonable

[skatingonice]

After a tough couple of years have decided to make ago of my relationship (of 12 years) but realised for my sanity I needed to be more assertive with what I want from the relationship.
There have been positive changes with house work (he can do some without being asked!) And a few other things too.

The sticking point is now sex. The has been a bit of a drout whist things were settling down but the last few times we have started we always stop as I want him to spend some time caressing me and turning me on, without just grabbing my breasts or putting his hand between my legs... Not saying he can't do these or I don't like them, just don't want him to start there. I have spoken to him, explained this, but he doesn't seem to get it, the other night I tried moving his hand on to my stomach (which I have said I like been stroked), another time I asked him to kiss my neck.... These are met with a blunt end to proceedings... He says I'm been unreasonable, those things don't turn him on so he shouldn't have to do them. I should just be turned on or be happy with where/how he wants to touch me. If I say please can you do x, the reply will be "well what are you going to do to turn me on? " but he is obviously already more turned on then me...He says I can only ask for things that are mutually enjoyable (I pointed out sex with both of us turned on would be mutually enjoyable)

I think he is obviously turned on enough for PIV sex from much less then I am. Is it unreasonable for me to expect him to spend some time getting me turned on too?)

[YoniBottsBumgina]

Relationships are not about taking the good with the bad to this extent. Yes you see the worst side of your partner, but when someone really cares about you, even in their lowest moments they do not aim that worst side at you. (In fact most people don't aim their "worst side" at anybody, and most people's "worst side" is not aggressive)

When balanced people in healthy relationships are in a bad mood, they talk about it, or they go out for a walk or they listen to music or ask for some alone time or however they usually deal with bad moods without taking it out on their partner, because they don't want to hurt them. How do you deal with your own bad moods? I expect you don't use your moods to justify hurting him so why is it ok if he does it to you?

Be careful with the incidents in the past. It is easy to think that something in the past doesn't matter, and is not relevant now, but something made him feel that it was acceptable at the time, something inside him said that that was fine and ok, and you don't know what that underlying thought process (or lack of it -lack of thinking about how his actions might make you feel for example) - you don't know what it was that made him feel justified in acting that way and it is extremely likely that that same thought process, belief or lack of thought/empathy/conscience is still there unchanged, which means that there could and probably will be incidents in the future which make you feel the same. Why wait for it to happen again when you already know he has some kind of reasonyto act that way and hence has reason to act like it again? You can't fix him.You just ccan't.

[skatingonice]

Yoni. Thank you, that's a really post and is certainly a concern. If last time was worse than before what will next time be. I almost feel like I'm waiting for something. I don't know why I'm here waiting.

I just seem unable to take that final step.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

" I almost feel like I'm waiting for something."

Quite a lot of people 'wait' for something really terrible to happen before taking a final step. Something drastic that they can point to as beyond the pale and therefore a valid reason for ending the relationship. Until that happens they think they are obliged to take the good with the bad, 'try harder', 'make a go of it'...

Your problem now, I think, is that this gradual escalation of bad behaviour & ill treatment went past drastic quite some time ago but you're so conditioned to it and so determined to be a good wife that takes the good with the bad, you will never see what happens as serious enough to take action.

What would make you tell him to go? An affair? A punch? Drunk driving with the kids in the back seat? Where's the line he has to cross?

[skatingonice]

Don't know where my line is any more. They places I thought it was have already been crossed.

He's been really nice and helpful last night and this morning. To the point where now I feel like a bitch for doubting things. Maybe I'm just being sensitive and over reacting. But then why do a group of strangers agree that I'm not, and in fact think things are worst then I can see. Maybe I'm explaining things one sided.

I recognise that him being nice and me feeling blame / guilt is part of a cycle.... I recognise that in theory, but I just can't accept is happening to me.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

You cannot accept it - or do not want to?.

What did you learn about relationships when growing up, this may have also contributed to your continued skewed perceptive now.

Such damaged men like this man is do not change. He has acted abusively throughout your marriage. Do not put yourself through another 12 years of the same.

[badinage]

10 days ago he was threatening to post naked pictures of you on the internet without your consent, having already displayed one of you in a bikini for everyone to see when he used his phone.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

"Don't know where my line is any more. "

That's the crux of the matter. Repeated exposure to this nice/nasty bullying routine means your self-respect and judgement have been eroded. Therefore you think, incorrectly, that this is partly your fault, that you need to be more assertive, that you're sensitive or overreacting. It's very common for victims of emotional abuse/psychological bullying/controlling behaviour to think they must be to blame and think they have to change attitude rather than the bully. That's what the bully wants you to think after all. See how it keeps you down?

One of the advantages of laying it out for strangers - painful though it might be I grant you - is that we can reset your skewed perspective. What you're experiencing from the sexual abusive behaviour to having your evening out spoiled by fabricated arguments about fetching beer... is really not normal or acceptable within the context of a loving relationship

[skatingonice]

Badinage - Threatened to post 'more' would be more accurate.

He had consent for the others but it was in a moment of hysterical bonding during his emotion affair (see previous thread). I would like them to be removed but when I have tried to raise it it didn't go to well. I will try again when I get home next week.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

He's had an affair as well? For goodness' sake, don't waste any more of your time on this man. Life isn't a rehearsal.... spend it with people that actually like you.

[skatingonice]

Well only on my opinion. Obviously he thinks he'd did nothing wrong as he didn't sleep with her.

This all looks much worse written down.

[BerylStreep]

Skating, where are you now? Are you away from home?

I will have a look at your other thread, but you know, he sounds dreadful - abusive in every way.

You know you don't need a 'valid reason' to end things, don't you?

[skatingonice]

I'm away with friends until middle of next week. (Will have little Internet access after today)

I can't see that is abusive. Surely I would have noticed. Surely he doesn't know what he's doing or how it comes across? All I know is in the last 12 months some things haven't felt right, and they are making me look differently at the relationship.

[BerylStreep]

I'm sure someone will post a link to some of the excellent sites that talk about what is abuse, and red flags. It sounds abusive to me.

My DH wouldn't dream of posting nude pictures on the internet of me, consent or not. He respects and values me as a person, not just a collection of erotic bits for other people to ogle.

My libido isn't great, but he hugs and cuddles me, and is patient. Your DH is brow beating you into not accepting any normal intimacy, and instead puts his needs, and only his needs, first.

Your DH had an emotional affair. And tbh, he doesn't even sound remorseful about his actions.

And don't even get me started about the manufactured rows, putting you on the defensive about whether you are in a mood.

The excessive jealousy - expecting you to reply to texts instantly, or questioning why not. His controlling behaviour about Facebook and other men.

The way he is disrespectful towards you 'I'm boring, I'm acting old, I'm uptight, I'm always looking out for myself and don't care what he wants'. (last part of that sentence is him projecting btw!).

All of it says to me that he doesn't see you as a proper person. You are an object with no feelings or needs, that he owns and can do with what he likes..

I don't want to come over as bossy. And I don't want to make you feel shit about your relationship for no reason, but I think the way your H is behaving towards you is glaringly obvious to lots of us on here, and I think you are beginning to have your doubts too.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

He does know what he's doing. I know that's hard to believe but people like your partner start from the place that they are right, what they want is far more important than other people and they are prepared to trample on feelings, create arguments and do whatever it takes to make sure they always get their own way. It might not always be malicious but it is certainly deliberate.

The reason I and others can confidently state it's emotionally abusive/bullying/controlling behaviour is because he's treading a very well-worn path that we've seen time and time and time again. Being awkward, difficult to please, argumentative, offensive and occasionally aggressive (sexually and verbally)... alternating with relatively nice behaviour & promises to change when things get really bad.... and gradually chipping away at the victim's self-confidence, tolerance and judgement over time.

You don't notice (few do) because you live with it. It's only when it gets particularly bad that you 'look differently' at it and wonder what's going on. But I can guarantee that, if you separated from him for six months and got some therapeutic help such as the Freedom Programme, you'd have repeated flashbacks of his behaviour where you'd be thinking 'OMG... I can't believe he did that and I thought it was OK'

[badinage]

Good grief this gets worse.

Having re-read your thread about your sex life, this bloke's a porn loser as well as an abuser, an unfaithful twat and a criminal, isn't he?

Did you realise that it's a criminal offence to post sexual images on the internet without the subject's consent?

The law recognises this form of abuse even if the victim doesn't

[badinage]

I've read your other thread about his affairs (plural)

I was on it. It was one of the worst examples of abusive gaslighting I've ever seen. It takes quite a lot to shock me, but I was horrified that a woman was experiencing that level of headfuckery and didn't appear to realise it.

Your mental health is seriously at risk with this man.

Please, please get away from him.

[badinage]

Have you read the thread Whatcha?

[WhatchaMaCalllit]

badinage - you are right, I hadn't when I posted. I had read the first page when I posted the reply above - I have now read the entire thread and was about to ask for my post to be removed as it has no bearing on the direction the thread took - apologies OP - I posted before I had read the whole story.

[Custardmiteofglut]

Skating have you considered keeping a diary of his behaviour and how it made you feel? You might be surprised at how often it is a 'bad day' and he's tried/succeeded in being abusive or manipulative?

It can be something simple like noting it was a good day, or an opportunity to write down how you feel after he has said/done something. That way you won't doubt yourself as and when he starts re-writing the past and gaslighting you.

Your assertiveness is great and to be encouraged, but 12 years is a good long time to bugger someone's head up and by the sounds of your posts he's been doing a good job of that.

I don't want to sound like a doommonger, but if he can't get a reaction from you with words, is his next step to be physical?

[Lweji]

I think you'll reach a point where you'll see his niceness for what it is, as fake and as too little.

In a relationship we always have ups and downs, but the downs should be bearable.
If the downs make you miserable, and are frequent, it's just not worth it.

[skatingonice]

Thank you for all the replys, and those further up the thread where people have shared their own experiences.

Yes I have thought of keeping a diary. Really think I need to as already I would have forgotten or minimised the things on this thread had I not written them down.

I've thought about it before as I can never bring up something that happened in the past unless I can demonstrate exactly what happened, word for word, expressions, tones, dates, times. No one can remember that detail can they, so I thought of writing things down to prove I had a point. Now I see that's not the reason I should record. I need to keep a record for me so I stop minimising.

A big part of me still thinks I've got this wrong and a diary will show that.

[skatingonice]

A part of me thinks bollocks this looks bad.

Maybe if I just do things his way out will be easier and okay. I tied that last year and it wasn't pay and I certainly wasn't happy. Just need to remember that.

[BerylStreep]

Skating, he has probably spent years conditioning you making you doubt your judgement. You may need to take baby steps to come to the realisation of what's going on, and whether you are prepared to put up with it for another 12, 24, 36 years.

[YoniBottsBumgina]

I know what you mean about waiting for something. The problem is that when something awful does happen, we don't tend to be able to process it straight away, especially when it is at odds with something that we really want to believe. So your belief (my relationship is great and nor abusive) is challenged by this thing that happens (say, he shoves you) - your brain will go into panic mode and your immediate reaction is "nope, no, I don't want this to be happening, please don't let it be real, if it is real then it means X Y Z (the things that are so frightening to you that you keep believing that the relationship is great even though it isn't) . Then you start minimising, oh, it doesn't really count as violence,excusing, maybe he was actually trying to move me out of the way, doubting your own memory of the incident and then he is there acting all normal and you really start to get into the territory of just pretending it never happened because it threatens your reality of "my relationship is great and not abusive". This is called cognitive dissonance if you want to look up more about it although most sites I've found seem difficult to wade through.

But anyway this kind of thing makes it difficult to react at the time and then as time passes you feel you can't leave over that X incident 3 months ago because he will ask you why you've been acting like everything is fine up until now and you don't know. And then also you feel as though you've been lying for those 3 months, like because you didn't leave straight away you have no right to leave now, and it feels unfair to him because you have let similar incidents go in the past and maybe he just didn't know, and you wonder if he did it by accident or if it was a one off and he's never done that exact thing before and you should give him a chance.

Just... stop. You think you're waiting for an "incident" to make things simpler but actually the simplest thing is to just decide, actually, I am not happy in this relationship. That is all you need to say and all that you need to feel, it is okay to leave because you are unhappy. It really is and it is really that simple. You do not need his permission or his agreement to end the relationship, you decide it is over, and it is. He can't have a relationship with you on his own! :)