Subtle EA? Or is it just me? Confused, please help

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

I sincerely apologise in advance for the length of this post, feel free to skim bits if it makes it easier.

I have lurked here for sometime, have stumbled across the support thread for those in emotionally abusive relationships, have never thought of DH as abusive as he?s never hit me but I?ve been unhappy for a while and couldn't understand why, he?s not overtly abusive, doesn't call me names or put me down in any obvious way, but over the 15 years we?ve been together has done some pretty shitty things. (We?ve been together 15 years, married for 10 and have ds age 7 and dd age 5)

only months after we got together I discovered I was pregnant, I hoped to sit down & discuss it like adults with him; he burst into tears, wailed, sobbed, put his head in his hands and begged me to have an abortion. I would have done anyway but didn't feel like I had a choice. The very fact that I was considering keeping it seemed to offend him.

He once burned the book i was reading on our BBQ (when drunk) because it was called ?The Satanist? and as a Catholic it offended him, esp as his mum had cancer.

once during a heated argument he got so angry he punched the wall right next to my head so hard it left the imprint of his four knuckles in the plaster; he said that was ok, he was so angry he really wanted to punch me but punched the wall instead.

2-3 years ago he decided to get fit so was having sessions with a PT, he badgered me into going too, even though I wasn't keen; after 6 months when i?d lost 1 1/2 stone, and gone from a size 16 to a 12 (im 6ft) he told me one night as i was getting into bed that ?he didn?t fancy me anymore, my tits were all saggy and I?d ruined my body and he wanted me to have a boob job"

last year bought me some eye-wateringly expensive underwear, and despite me saying repeatedly that it didn't fit has proceeded to buy me another 4 sets of same size stuff. Gets upset when I tell him it doesn't fit (again) and says he is only doing it to spice things up and put the spark back.

once remotley wiped my iphone after an argument, and during same argument threatened to sell the car

demanded/coerced me into sex when I had recurring thrush (every month, over a period of four years), despite me telling him repeatedly how much it burned.

no help with kids - has never bathed kids, could count on fingers of one hand how many times he?s put them to bed, says he cant read bedtime stories because he?s dyslexic but manages to spend 2-3 hours on his ipad every night. I thought that was normal until an exchange student we had staying with us for the summer last year commented on how he did nothing with the kids and I did everything.

went on holiday last year, DS took the class ?holiday bear? & was soooo excited, DH said we couldn?t take bear on days out in case it got lost. I was too scared to say the bear could go in the back pack, DS was visibly crushed & in tears, i felt I had failed DS because i didn't stand up to DH.

a couple of years back he tried to persuade me to have my navel pierced, i said no, then during an argument said he just wanted a sign that I loved him, like - guess what - having my navel pierced. to my eternal shame i did it, hated it but thank god it rejected so i took it out.

says he wants me to wear sexy clothes so that when we go out he can show me off and other blokes will be jealous. i don?t really want to anyones trophy.

he wants me to be completely hairless between my legs, i?ve tried it a couple of times but frankly don't like it, thinks its degrading, don?t think im setting a good example to my dd (or ds for that matter, what will he think when sees a real bush?), (and god does it itch when it grows back in) he says I should do it for him to please him.

Says i should do things to please him even if i don't like doing it, as he would do the same for me. i have tried to explain to him that i don't understand how he can get pleasure from me doing something I clearly don't want to do, and that i wouldn't even ask him to do something that he was unhappy with, but he doesn't get it.

A few weeks ago DS was unhappy at school & with homework, after a discussion with the head teacher I was browsing the web looking at home schooling (something I considered before DS started school, not something I?d rush into but it?s always an option) he caught me looking at HE websites, didn't think to ask my opnion about it, just went straight into a tirade about how he disagreed and he was really upset that I was even thinking about it.

basically every argument turns into how he feels about it and how upset I have made him feel and how i need to change my behavior so that he doesn?t get upset and that he?s only happy when I?m happy.

I?ve stuck it this long because of what we?ve been through with his parents, his mum had cancer for years, with all the entailing chemo, radiotherapy etc, then 3 weeks after she died we found out his Dad had cancer, he died 6 months later (Feb 2009). For a long time I?ve made excuses for DH?s behavior because his parents were ill and then obv he was grieving.

Last year things seemed finally to be good, we had about 6 months where I thought we were finally coming out of the woods, but the last 6 months have been hell. We argue every week, he says its because I don't talk to him. I?ve tried to explain I feel afraid to talk to him because he raises his voice, interrupts me, and doesn't listen. He says its all down to me, only I can change it and I?m not normal.

I could go on but think even i'd lose the will to live reading it all.

In short (and thanks if you?ve stuck with me this far) is any of the above normal? would you have put up with this thus far? Am I over-reacting? And what are the chances of things ever being better? should I just cut my losses now and run?

I?ve just turned 40, have taken a long hard look at the last 15 years and don't want the next 15 to be the same.

[lilachair]

I'm so happy for you! Brilliant that your mum is supportive, what a relief.
Happy times ahead xx

[LemonBreeland]

Great news OP. Keep strong

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

myroomisatip Thank you and good luck for tomorrow, please let me know how it goes, I will be thinking of you x

lilachair bizarrely, I feel happy too, then the enormity of what I'm about to do hits me and my lip wobbles a bit and suddenly I find I have something in my eye. Or sometimes both my eyes

And thank you all for your kind, supportive and honest words.

That people who I have never met, and who I am never likely to meet, care about my feelings and well-being when my own husband doesn't is sad, humbling and up-lifting.

And in the words of the totally insane but utterly wonderful Brian Blessed on a recent HIGNFY - "DON'T LET THE BASTARDS GRIND YOU DOWN"

I will pass on your compliments to my mum, I'm sure she'd be very pleased xx

[lilachair]

Keep us posted, and don't be afraid to come back if you are having a wobble.

Some days I was so happy it was like euphoria, other days the horribleness of it all made me cry. There will be ups and downs. And beware, once he realises you are detatching he may well get more overbearing and controlling. Be careful what you say until you have a plan in place.

Thinking of you x

[Fluffymonster]

He may sense something on the cards, and turn on the charm and be sweetness and light - so you then feel guilty.

Remember it's NOT the times of so-called 'reconcilliation' that count, it's the general pattern of abuse that is the true indicator of how things are.

Look at the things he's said and done in your OP. They're not the actions of a loving husband or a good father.

It's not normal to be 'too scared' to contradict him over your ds taking a 'holiday bear' with him on days out. It was obviously so important to ds, part of a class activity, and the whole point of having a 'holiday bear' is to take it out and about. Should've been a fun thing, that ds could've then gone back to school with various anecdotes about. He was mean to your ds, and controlling. Not healthy.

It's not normal to have so little input with the kids. My far from perfect DP changed nappies, bathed, takes them to the park, to the cinema at weekends. He insists on doing his fair share of storytime at night as it's a cherished part of the parenting role - he doesn't see it as a chore - it's actually precious quality time with them, that he enjoys. The dcs adore him. Whenever he comes home from work he always gets a lovely welcome as they're happy to see him. He makes them feel loved. Your dcs deserve the same. If they are not getting that from him - he doesn't deserve them, and they don't deserve to be made to feel they deserve what little he gives. It's emotional abuse of them too.

Stay strong.

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

Thanks Fluffymonster. When I was chatting to my mum she said that whatever my Dad's faults were (they split when I was 12) and rubbish husband though he was, he was at least a good Dad. I remember him taking me to the park, having lengthy discussion about everything under the sun, him teaching me poetry and chess at the age of 5!

To this day my Dad is very from from perfect but I still remember those times and I still love him. I'm saddened to think what my kids will remember.

The only time, and I mean the only time H changed nappies or has does anything with them has been when there have been other people present. He never, ever plays with them, just for fun. I'm not even sure he knows how to.

All the more reason to get out and move on.

[TheYoniKeeper]

Oh god, really? Never?

That's so sad wearing'

You are definitely doing the right thing

I really do believe that whether you're in your 20s 40s or even 80s, you shouldn't have to live like that any longer than necessary once you realize how bad things are

Wishing you lots of luck & strength

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Abuse is about power and control; this man wants absolute over you and by turn the children.

Do not be still with this person at the age of 41.

Do continue to make your plans to leave this truly evil individual and make your escape asap; I have read of many controlling abusive types on here and this man is way out there controlling (they all follow the same type of script mind you). Goodness alone knows how he came to be like this (pound to a penny one or either of his own parents were exactly the same) but that is certainly not a main concern of yours.

Abuse like this is insidious in its onset and such men can and often are very plausible to those in the outside world.

Your main priority is to continue to gain as much help as possible to leave him before the next 15 years of your lives (and your children are just as much victims as you are) are completely ruined by his insane desires to keep you all in a gilded cage of his own paranoid making. Do keep talking on here, further engage your mother's help and talk to Womens Aid.

You may also want to read "Why does he do that?" written by Lundy Bancroft and keep this safe at your mother's house.

Longer term I would also suggest you enrol on Womens Aid Freedom Programme as such men can and do take a long time, years even, to recover from.

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

TheYoniKeeper - no, never. And yes, it's incredibly sad. He watches telly and pisses about on his iPad or the computer. But when we argue he's quick to tell me how hard he works for us all by going out to work every day.

Luckily their grandad plays loads with them and usually has them in fits of giggles, sadly we don't see them as mush as I'd like because H doesn't like my mum or stepdad.

Attilathemeerkat i think he gets the worst traits from both his mum & dad - his dad was a bully when H was a kid (one story H told me was his Dad forcing him to eat sprouts, by which I mean he shoved the sprouts in H's mouth and held it shut til he'd swallowed them) and his mum was a manipulative cow, but everyone thought they were lovely because outwardly they were so helpful and kind.

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

Why am I not surprised to see that your husband does not get along with your mother or stepdad. You should be able to see them as much as you wish; again he has controlled your access to them because he does not like them.

Your H certainly had abusive role models himself when he was growing up; we after all learn about relationship first and foremost from our parents and he learnt about abuse from them. Do you ever see his parents now, I sincerely hope not.

I hope you go onto set yourself free from such an individual; do not be with him when you are 41!. Do consider also doing the Freedom Programme as well for yourself in the longer term; its designed to help women who have been in abusive relationships.

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

I'm glad you're feeling more positive and I'm particularly pleased that you have a supportive family that have taken you seriously and not given you some hogwash about 'stick it out for the kids'. If your own childhood was marred by a break-up it's not too bit a leap to suggest that you've been too keen to keep the peace as a result. We all like to think we can be more successful at marriage if we've been set a bad example. However, now that you've understood what's going on, it's important to be focused about what happens next.

Emotionally abusive people are highly manipulative and you'll find the 'Nice & Nasty Routine' gets ramped up from now on.... switching between guilt-tripping you into staying, scaring you into staying and love-bombing you into staying. Keep a clear head and keep listening to the people around you that genuinely have your best interests at heart. Good luck

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

Both his parents died about 4 years ago, but even now we are not free from their influence. Every decision H makes is appended with "I think mum and dad would have approved". When his mum was diagnosed with cancer we moved into a house along the street from them (even though we had only lived 2 miles away on our previous home)

They came along every day, used to drive me mad. And H would ask their opinion about things before me.

But that's another story altogether.

Also was just thinking, I don't remember H ever telling our DC that he loves them, which for someone who claims to be very emotional and caring is very odd. And incredibly sad

[CogitoErgoSometimes]

'Mum and Dad' in this instance are just a convenient hook for self-justification. Like these people who commit some appalling act and then claim 'God wanted me to do it'. See it for what it is.

[JennyFromTheBog]

My x has improved as a father since I left him. But weirdly my reason for not leaving him was for a long time because he was a good dad. I can't remember why I believed this.

He didn't improve immediately, first he was sended coded messages through a four year old to me, wanting to take one child not the other, but it is now more than 5 years since I left him. He was similar, abusive - but, reading here, I realise that as bad as he was, there are worse abusers out there :-( and he only changed nappies if there was an audience.

however now when he comes he takes them places, children's museums, childern's restaurants, the zoo. He makes a heck of a lot more effort than he ever would have made with them if we were still together, when he used to shush them and make me feel guilty that they made noise when he was watching sport. He doesn't see them as often as he should of course but on the occasions when he does come, htey have fun with him, and when we lived with him he was a menacing figure who anchored any feeling of fun or lightheartedness before it got off the ground.

So the guitl we take on when we leave our children's fathers (iykwim), we generally I mean, is so misplaced. Nothing will prevent him from being a good father except himself. I think my x saw that a couple of years after I'd ceased all communication with him. That if we never ever spoke, never communicated, it became harder for him to blame me. Harder, not impossible of course. :-)

I read about fathers here who sit there shushing thier children all weekend and I think, that could have been us if we'd stayed together 'mum and ddad' for the children's sake. arghghgh, the thoughts of it.

[JennyFromTheBog]

oh yes, the nice then nasty then silence routine. then nice. then anger. then silence. the space between each phase gets longer each cycle until you're finally pretty much left alone.

[JennyFromTheBog]

sorry for multiple posts. To add to what cogito says, prepare for accusations of cold-heartedness. YOu are cold -hearted/selfish not to forgive me/give me another chance. You are so critical (to observe my glaringly obvious faults) a nicer woman would overlook my very minor personality quirks, but because you're a selfish bitch you zone in on slight flaws and turn them into a big deal! you're so judgemental! it's so impetuous of you to break up a family! what has prompted this? (eh, years of being ground down?) you have no reason ? (that is acceptable to me!) so you are breaking up a family on an impetuous selfish whim!

Then silence.

then "you know i was thinking about the time we got the boat to france and I realised how funny you are........."

Then, when that doesn't garner the right response, back to the begining.

Just be prepared for it. Apologies if this is incoherent and wafflly

[lilachair]

That makes perfect sense Jenny . You've explained it perfectly x

[PoppyField]

OP - have been lurking. You're doing great telling your mum and starting to get RL recognition and support. There will be lots more to come amongst your friends and family as you start to confide in them.

Jenny - you're very acute -you're describing my STBXH - the nice and nasty routine, then mainly nasty for years and the 'you're so selfish to break up our family' when I finally got up the guts to stop it. AND I now get the strange coded messages through my five year old 'Mummy, why are we living in Daddy's house, he paid for it.' And just last week I got the 'Can I just take DD out on Sunday' (i.e not DS who craves his attention just as much'). It takes the cake. I try to keep communication to an absolute minimum for exactly the same reason - it becomes much harder (but not impossible) to blame me for stuff. But god, the house is a different, lighter, happier place without him around. Thanks for putting that into words.
Poppy

[WearingFuckMeSocks]

Jenny no it's not waffly, made perfect sense.

And yes, that is how it is every time we argue and I don't immediately back down and apologise for "my behaviour". I am accused of being cold, unemotional and unfeeling. He accuses me of snapping at little things (maybe because I'm wound up tighter than a coiled spring and always on my guard - wonder why that would be?) and he says HE is the one who is walking on eggshells around ME.

Then he reminds me how hard he works (that's not the issue), how he is a good bloke (even if that were true, I never said he wasn't) and how I should be thankful that due to HIS efforts we have a nice big house, cars etc etc and how much worse my life would be if we split up (so my efforts of doing pretty much all the housework, childcare and working part time are superfluous are they?).

He says things to me during arguments that I would never say to anyone, let alone someone that I was supposed to love. And then, after he has talked at me for an hour (or sometimes 3 or 4, til I dont even know what year it is) in an unnecessarily loud voice, constantly interrupted me and told me everything I have said is wrong, I'm then further derided for not "ending the argument" by giving him a cuddle. If I cant take anymore of a verbal battering and walk away to clear my head, I'm accused of "avoiding the issue" and "refusing to talk" and so there is another "fault" of mine to beat me over the head with.

[PoppyField]

God he is an arsehole. This is torture for you OP. Yep - when they say things you would never dream of saying to anyone, (let alone the person they are supposed to cherish most in the world) - it is horrifying. You realise that there is no respect there, nothing, nowt. It took me a long time to get over the 'If he loves me, how can he say those those things?' questions, because I felt so, so hurt... eventually I worked it out. He. Didn't. Love. Me.
It stopped being quite so hurtful and became liberating when I finally did the maths. Good luck. You are doing fab and you are working it out for yourself. I feel for you, but life will be better without him.

[imustbepatient]

You poor thing. I left my ExH as he was emotionally abusive but even he didn't reach some of the lows that your H has inflicted on you.

Jennyfromthebog your posts express it very clearly, and in response to the question you put in one of your earlier ones, no, no one ever regrets leaving.

Very best wishes and good luck to you OP. I hope, as I did, that you look back on this point as the time you took your life back and started enjoying living again, on your own terms.

[Fluffymonster]

You do everything with the kids while he sits back, you do the housework while he pretty much switches off when he gets home (so it seems). And you work part-time.

He may work hard in his job, but seems to be making zero effort at home, while you're taking up all the slack.

It must be exhausting, and on top of that he makes unwelcome sexual demands, criticises your appearance, and demands you to give him cuddles after he's verbally abused you, and negated what you say. He sounds self-absorbed and toxic. Your happiness is not dependent on him being around at all - quite the opposite. It's not all about him.

Big houses and nice cars are no substitution for feeling loved and respected, being comfortable in your own skin, having self-confidence, living in a peaceful, happy environment with your children, and not having your thoughts, feelings and opinions constantly ignored and negated.

Your opinions matter - of course they do. You are not behaving badly or wrong, for trying to express them. If he can't even take your thoughts seriously, and listen when you are clearly unhappy - he is GASLIGHTING. Emotional abuse heaped on emotional abuse.

[OxfordBags]

Je is telling you heis all these things, caring, loving, affectionate, hands-on, and so on and so forth, but he's not actually being or doing them, is he? OP, he sounds really abusive, selfish, controlling and a shit father and terrible husband. You sound sparky and sweet and thoughtful and intelligent and giving. The sad thing is, however fab you are cannot compensate for the hurt of having such a wanker for a dad.

He sounds incredibly immature and very narcissistic. Everything is about him and how outraged he is that you are basically daring to be a real human being just like he is (which is clearly is incapable of comprehending), with needs, ideas, flaws, rights, etc. That he will berate you for hours then be angry cos you won't cuddle him is true narcissistic abuse. He is stunted at the level of a toddler. But what makes actual toddler selfishness and sociopathy bearable is that they will grow out of it wuick enough and the rest of them makes up for that tiny negative side. Whereas he will never get better than he is now and offers virtually nothing positive in any other way.

I feel like crying for your poor kids whose dad can't be bothered to do anything with, do anything for, won't even let them enjoy Xmas properly, unless it's for show. They will know this is wrong and odd, and being kids, will internalise it as being their fault.

You could do much better. Even being alone forever in a hovel would be better than this.

[Fluffymonster]

It's like when one person in a relationship says "I'm not happy, there's a problem" - and the other one says "No, you're imagining it, everything's fine!"

Of course it isn't fine.

The very fact that one of them has a problem, means there's a problem - no matter how much the other one tries to deny it. To deny someone the right to express a problem, no matter how much you like the status quo is abusive.

It's telling that person "My perception, is more valid than your perception." The other person ends up questioning their own feelings and instincts, and this is ultimately very damaging - they may not have physical marks, but it's a breaking of their spirit. Which is why emotional abuse is a form of domestic violence.

[JennyFromTheBog]

Maybe the quickest way to end any argument from now on is to agree, yes you're a good bloke, yes you've worked hard.

I realised my x would never apologise for being so awful to me. He just felt entitled, so it would be like trying to get a farmer to feel guilty about keeping his cows in the barn not in the guest bedroom, that is the kind of challenge you'd have to get my x to feel any blame for the way things worked out with us.. so now, I just say 'the dynamic between us failed'. The relationship was not a success. But I didn't have that mumsnet knowledge to begin with. I left my x in 2007 and hadn't discovered mumsnet. I only learned later that it's pointless seeking their understanding or their approval (!). Honestly, I sought his approval to leave him. I wanted, no needed him to understand that I'd had no choice but to leave him. So, I wish I'd had mumsnet. I could have fastforwarded myself through 18 months of pointlessness if I'd had the likes of mathanxiety, anyfucker, sgb, anniegetyourgun, bertiebotts saying to me 'don't engage, don't engage, don't engage'.

Ah well! I'm free now.