Nothing enough for MIL - now guilt tripping us through DCs (sorry so long)

[notagreathostess]

I?d appreciate some (more) help with my MIL problems. Sorry so long and a bit rambly!

MIL is 64, retired and in very good health. She is single, her parents have both died (one fairly recently), she has no siblings and DH is an only child. MIL wants to spend more time with him. We both understand this and have some sympathy for her. We know she gets lonely. The problem is she does not understand that we are very limited in the time we can give. We have 4 DCs (the youngest are still a baby and toddler, the eldest a teen) and we both work. I have posted here previously that we have had problems with her expectation to take extended breaks staying with or near us.

Her journey to us is about a 1.5 hours by train or car and we frequently invite her over for the day. As it is rare for us to have more than one day per week where neither of us is at work at all (and often we don?t get that) it is much harder for us to find time to load the kids up and drive over to her although we do when we can,and prior to her father dying (MIL was his carer) we used to do the lion?s share of the travel as we recognised it was difficult for her. Now she ?has lots of time on her hands? she wants to spend more of it with us, but not in any way which might make it easier for us.

If we do find time to invite her for a few days she always complains she?d rather stay for more and day-trip invitations are always greeted with the complaint that she would prefer to stay over. Her opinion is that it is no extra work for us to just have "another body in the house" but this simply is not true. She is not an easy guest - struggles with the children, doesn't understand our need for privacy (she has walked in to our room before whilst we are still in bed to talk to us), and even if she has agreed to stay in a B and B rather than expecting us or one of the kids to give up our bed etc. for her will expect DH to accompany her back to where she is staying when she is ready for bed where she will then try to collar him for a lengthy chat despite having spent all day with us. To be honest it can be exhausting and I am a naturally private person (DH is too).

After excellent advice here previously I have tried being more upfront about requests for help so that we could maybe find it easier to have her to stay but she can be shirty about us being ?unwelcoming?. When she is over here I would appreciate her just playing with the kids whilst I sort tea etc. more than anything but she lacks confidence with them and even when I've organised games etc. specifically for her to play with the toddler and the older kids she gets bored and demands to been entertained by DH and I.

We also suggested to her at one stage that if she is so unhappy about how little she sees of us that she trial moving closer to us, renting a house, so that she could pop over now and again through the week rather than the less frequent but more intensive visits she demands at the moment. Money is not a problem for her. She dismissed this outright as she did not want to be further from friends. Whilst I think this is the right decision for her (increasingly so as I feel so frustrated and resentful at the moment) but she seems unable to accept that that is a choice she is making and it does mean limitations on her time with us.

I took the advice last time that we needed to be more blunt with her and have really tried but DH and I have made a complete hash of handling the situation as every time we try to discuss it with her it ends up with us apologising for being so busy and trying to defend ourselves against claims that we just do not care about her. Our fault, and I could live with that, except as they get older the same accusations ate being levelled at DCs. Whilst she struggles with the little ones she is happy to have the older children to stay occasionally and we encourage this as it is company for MIL without demanding work/time we cannot give from us. Unfortunately they now return with stories of how desperately sad we are making MIL, as well as other things, attacking them more directly. When DC2 was there last week the day he arrived DH and I phoned for a quick ?love you, be good, sleep well? type chat. It was fairly late and we were both tired so when MIL took the phone from DC2 and tried to engage DH in a long chat he spoke to her for 5 minutes or so, then explained we still had to eat etc. and so would need to go but that as we were due to go over to see her in two days we'd catch up properly then. MIL told DC2 the next day that DH's treatment of her on the phone had been so cruel that she had cried herself to sleep and she wished that we (DH, me and the DCs) did not exist.

She has said other very hurtful things in the past to them and we've been very upset and resolved to pick her up on it "next time". This feels like the last straw. Problem is I'm not sure how to deal with this without causing a huge fight. DH and I do not want to hurt MIL but it is a fact that she is hurting us and I cannot tolerate her hurting my DCs who should not be told by their GM that she wished they did not exist. I feel like we've never really set any boundaries and now that we're at a point where things are getting out of control we really don't have a clue where to start. I did take on board the advice I got last time and we did try but we both end up apologising to a teary MIL! How do we get the message across without resorting to lots of justifications and without her saying, essentially, you don't want me around (ironically a situation which is becoming closer and closer to the truth as a result of her behaviour)

Please be gentle with me - I realise that we should have been more communicative earlier. Neither of us is the confrontational sort though and we truly don't want her to be unhappy. I also recognise that I received good advice last time but have lacked the backbone to take it properly. This is probably more of a rant than anything as I don't know what more you good people can tell me!

prettybird - there is an element of truth in what you say. I do try very hard to not compare MIL to my DM - I know it's not her fault that she isn't here anymore. I do get bitter about the fact that MIL cannot see how lucky she is though. Having bought into MIL's "woe is me" attitude as she was working, caring for her father etc and the level of contact was constrained by her ifelstyle as well as ours I really thought she would be prepared to make the effort rather than put it all on us now she has the chance. I think a bit of me did believe that she'd chose to move closer and this would make her drop the bitterness and become a happy, integral part of our lives. I understand her decision not to - aqain, it is the right thing, BUT I wish she'd try and fit in with us if she wants to see us more, if not accept that she has choices.

Lemony- For now there will be no more visits from the older DCs without us. DH and I will not expose them to her alone until we have managed to face up to MIL and made her understand that she cannot speak to them in this way. If she can not accept this they will not go back. I hope she can as they are good company for her.

perfectstorm - yes, she does have friends locally although never tires of telling us how much it pains her to see the involvement they have in their DC and DGCs' lives. Agree that I am coming to see the treatment of the DCs as intolerable and this is what makes me now determined to deal with it. Thing is how do I explain that things which have been said years ago have caused pain and hurt, but we've never had the guts to speak up?? I think we have created a lot of this ourselves.
get a little reassurance that I'm not going totally mad and this behaviour isn't really justified by DH and I being horrible people.

Soaccidentprone - mantras are something we need to perfect to get out of the cycle of apologising, which just reinforces her belief that we are at fault and she is right to feel pushed out and sidelined.

I think we have created a lot of this ourselves. get a little reassurance that I'm not going totally mad and this behaviour isn't really justified by DH and I being horrible people.

You haven't created any of it. You're not the one behaving abusively. You've tried to be kind and acted in good faith, hoping things would improve. They won't because she is not acting in good faith and her behaviour is not normal. She's manipulative and selfish. You've tried to handle her on an ongoing, maintaining, incident-by-incident manner because that works with most people in most situations. She isn't most people and it's a deteriorating and unpleasant situation - but she's created it.

I don't know if this helps, but reading, it sounds like you feel she's controlling the situation. The reality is that she really, really wants to be part of your lives, when you merely tolerate her from guilt. The reality is that you have the power, not her, because you don't care if you see her or not. So actually if you set out to her that her selfishness and unpleasantness is alienating you all, and meaning she sees less of you, then the ball is in her court. You have nothing to lose but hassle and stress by cutting down on contact - she has a great deal.

Thing is how do I explain that things which have been said years ago have caused pain and hurt, but we've never had the guts to speak up??

I think by being truthful: you wanted to be kind and not hurt her, and you hoped that it would all blow over and settle. Instead it's become worse. Don't allow yourself to be guilty for being kind, patient and tolerant. Those are GOOD things to be - and were taken advantage of.

You aren't the bad guys here.

This will never change - you will still be having these problems in 10 years time.

You will worry for hours and wonder how she can be seen to see reason - but she never will.

Stop wasting so much energy worrying about someone who isn't worrying about you in the slightest.

Meant to say "It's good to get a little reassurance..."

I understand what you mean about the power thing. I also see that she is deperate to be in our lives and that we are (with difficulty) tolerating her at the moment. This makes us both soooo sad though and feels so avoidable. MIL's behaviour to try and be with us more is actually driving us away. This is why I feel we have probably done her no favours by not taking control earlier.

Also that this will still be going on in 10 years - def true we've already bounced around the issues for over a decade and a half with a gradual deterioration.

I think DH is going to call MIL tonight to discuss the comment to DC2 last week. I am coming to the conclusion that we must invite her over at some point and engineer some child free time to discuss the problems in depth. Thing is I don't want to launch into a character assasination of her, neither do I want to back down and end up taking all of the responsibility for MIL's unhappiness on DH and my shoulders.

TBH I think it would be better to compose a letter that you can both draft and redraft, edit and then have your own copy, and then invite her at the end of it to visit you to discuss the points raised, and a more positive way forwards in future. I say this because from all you've said, you will end up folding, apologising and forgetting the main thrust of the issue if she's there and you aren't. She sounds very expert at manipulation, and you and your DH not remotely so. I think ensuring you get to say all you need to in a form that can't be twisted or reduced to the odd isolated incident is really important - are you really sure that will happen if this is started via a face to face conversation?

I can see pros and cons with writing it down. It is without doubt likely from past form that we will not manage to say what we need to face to face. I'm scared whatever we do we (and she) are going to feel like we are bullying MIL, and am not sure which route is best/worse from that point of view. I also worry that anything in writing will be used against us in the future but am not sure if that's just paranoia. Certainly it is the surest way to say what we intend to rather than changing the script halfway through.

Either way I think it will be useful for DH and I to put our thoughts in writing just to clarify things. Whether we approach her to discuss it or give it to her on paper/email first I'm not sure. Depends how positive a spin we can put on it I guess.

I do very much want it to be about being positive about the future rather than dwelling on the past, but past problems are going to have to be raised. Think MIL will stuggle to see anything positive though.

Once again huge thanks for the advice.

Please - STOP thinking you are potentially bullying her.

You are setting boundaries - a perfectly reasonable thing to do. She doesn't have a right to share in your family life - it is a privilege if you choose to do so.

That is not bullying.

Yes, it is assertiveness

I love soaccidentprone's 2 choices idea. Basically what you do with a toddler ....

Agree how much contact you wish to have, then no more, and every time she moans/cries/sends a text you say 'I'm sorry you feel like that' and then go about your business.... Basically, you have to set it up so she has to be nice to be around you. If she is nasty, or says nasty things, or sends nasty texts you reply 'that was very upsetting' and nothing else and keep away from her a bit. When she is nice, reward that (think of it like training a dog).

This, from upthread, from Mumsyblouse.

MIL could live for another 20-30 years, things won't improve as your DCs grow and leave home. Why stand for it any longer, please don't feel guilty about having let her get away with high jinks in the past, an old dog can learn new tricks, (no offence intended but carrying on with earlier analogy). She isn't some frail sensitive little flower. She can take it. She won't like it but she can lump it.

She sounds like a right manipulative horror.

I would just not bother. Her behaviour is just too bad for you to accommodate her any further.

Basically the advice is exactly the same as dealing with a toddler:
Attention and what she wants when she behaves well
2 choices
Standard responses to texts = tactical ignoring of bad behaviour.

I'd move to Australia personally

Many years ago I went through this with my DM. The advice is absolutely correct - she needs you more than you need her. (It may be significant that I am also an only child - I think this makes separating from a parent as you become an adult much harder)

When I finally realised this it was a light bulb moment.

I started setting boundaries - only picking up the phone every other day instead of 5 times a day was a big one for me. For you it might be stating when you can visit and only those days being the choices.

My mum hated it and there were explosions. However it boiled down to - she needed me more than I needed her - and I wasn't changing.

At this point one of two things can happen - your MIL slowly realises the new rules and unhappily at first learns to live with them. Or she reveals herself to be a total narc and you are well shot of her.

For me, my mum 'got it' and we are now really close and it's sometimes hard to remember that she had all these narc traits. But you and your husband need to be united and prepared to stick it out as she will be desperate to change the rules back the way they were and you will be tempted as superficially that is an easy life.

Just remember - the stakes are higher for her than you. Stick to your guns!

Firstly sorry if my posting is erratic and full of typos - on phone as laptop died. May struggle to reply to all for same reason but do appreciate all input very much.

Re toddlers and dogs i'm certainly more confident with both and have often compared the demanding behaviour with a toddler so should start treating her like my 3 year old!

Really pleased you worked things out Kundry - gives hope.

To update - DH called mil last night. As predicted she said she couldnt remembersaying that to dc2 but that she had been very upset to be told dh didn't have time for her then. In the past he would have justified and apologised but stood firm and said she had been unfair in her expectation. She admitted this had been unreasonable. Dh told her to be mindful of what she says to the Dcs. Progress I think...

Good start. Remember, the moment you feel the need to apologise or smooth things over by minimising, repeat your point, or at the very least, leave a pause for her to process what you have said, and listen to herself being unreasonable.