Am I being a mug - supporting him when he won't support me?

[Amykins35]

Hi, it's my first time here. Haven't got anyone to discuss this with and would appreciate some perspectives. It's complicated, but will try not to make it too long though you're welcome to ask anything you feel I've missed.
DP and I have been together for 4 years. I had a 2.5 year old when we met, we now have a 14 month old together. We were planning to move in together when I was pregnant as that's when our contracts on respective properties ran out. However, some extra debts from his marriage came to light and we couldn't afford to do so. When his contract ran out he moved into a room in a friends house which he doesn't pay for. He comes to visit for tea on work nights then sleeps at his friends, on nights off (generally 3 per week) he eats and sleeps here. He doesn't pay anything towards rent, food or bills here though he does pay maintenance towards our baby - though that's partly to reduce the CSA payment for his children from his marriage I suspect. All his money (around 40k salary) is going into paying off his debts.
He says that if he's being honest it'll be at least another 1.5/2 years before he can afford to move in with us. He would then like us to have another baby. I said that I wouldn't like a baby if I couldn't stay home with them for at least the first three years (personal preference) and he said that in that case we wouldn't be able to have another one as 'his wages wouldn't be enough to support us.' At the moment I do and pay for everything and think I'm being a mug for effectively supporting him to clear his debts when he isn't willing to support me in the future. Having another child isn't essential for me but it irritates me that I have far less money than 40k p/a yet it's ok for me to support him but he wouldn't do it for me.
Also, it's gone from having a baby together in a loving committed relationship where we were moving in together to him not living with us until our child is potentially almost 3.5 years old. Not to mention the fact this isn't good for either child, it means I do absolutely everything for them. I work from home and am also studying for a degree. Next year is my final year when I'll be doing my dissertation which is obviously a huge piece of work. Another student that's doing it this year said she's been in the library 4 days per week from 10am-11pm since September and still not finished. Youngest DD is difficult at night - she will only sleep if latched on so doing my university work is proving impossible. When I told DP how much work is involved next year he said he'd 'tell his mum to get DVD player fired up to entertain DD.' I just felt like screaming at him that it isn't his mums responsibility to have our DD (never mind the fact she never has, never offered and lives 1.5 hours away) that if he lived with us then he could do what normal partners do and help with the kids at night so I can work then. He's just done some work based exams which he got to study for every night interruption free as I have the kids yet I feel I could well fail the degree which I've invested my savings in and that is essential for my future career and for me to be able to provide for the kids. Not only that but if we reach the day where he moves in then things won't get easier for me as he won't know what to do with the kids/they'll want me.
I'm aware I'm ranting now so I'll stop there! Am I wrong to be feeling utterly pissed off at the situation?

[McPheetStink]

Snazzy, your last sentance is so true. My cocklodger suddenly left us when my money dried up. He claims other reasons, which are of course all bollocks.

[FrequentFlyerRandomDent]

So he takes home £2,500 after tax and NI, pays no bills, no groceries, and cannot afford supporting his new family?

Have you met his bank manager and see the repayment plans? Or have you got his word or a piece of paper for its?

Even it true, he does not seem committed to your family at all.

You seem to b seeing through this. Your resentment is healthy. Listen to what you are trying to tell yourself.

[LineRunnyEgg]

If this is real, get rid of him.

[MysteriousHamster]

He should be begging to be living with you so if he can't contribute so much financially he can at least do his part of the childcare.

If he's not doing that, I wouldn't trust him that his £40k salary is only going towards debts. As FrequentFlyer says that's a decent whack of money he's getting each month - is he really spending over £2k on debts, and if so, why isn't he trying to get some of them written off/IVA'd?

[Snorbs]

He is more into the relationship than I am - he relies on me for everything (not just money!!) texts all day, constantly declares love etc.

When there's dissonance between what someone does and what someone says, ignore their words and pay attention to what they do. Words are easy. Being a good and involved parent and partner is harder.

He's putting in the absolute minimum needed to keep you on the hook while you subsidise his life. He's a con-artist. It's time to cut your losses.

[Phineyj]

I'm a teacher, and I would advise you in the strongest possible terms to get rid of this bloke before you embark on a career in teaching -- you simply won't be able to handle the hours with this to worry about and the lack of help (also I don't know what course you are on but if you are planning to train as a graduate your degree class might affect the bursary you get).

Obviously you can't get work done effectively when you are worried that the person you've left the children with isn't doing a good job. Any other single parents on your course -- could you swap the occasional night of babysitting?

[PureQuintessence]

You seriously think he is more into the relationship because he is sending you sweet little texts?

Actions speak louder that SMS, I am afraid...

[Hatpin]

Pound to a penny he's either still paying the mortgage on the FMH but hasn't told you, or is paying rent to his mate, or both.

In the event that he is actually trying to clear his debt in record time, do you really think he's going to hang around once he's got 2.5 grand a month in his pocket again?

He doesn't live with you now because he doesn't want to. He doesn't help with childcare because he doesn't want to. He doesn't offer to pay for anything because he doesn't want to.

If he's not committed now, he's hardly going to morph into partner of the year when he's got a bigger disposable income again.

Talk is cheap. Actions are the only currency you should be watching.

[EggyFucker]

You going to come back, amy ?

Or are you going go flee back into your state of denial ?

[Inertia]

Is the friend that he stays with half the week his (ex) wife?

[GardenPath]

That's exactly what I was thinking, Inertia. This man is extremely manipulative, an inveterate liar and a con-artist. Textbook. Seen it, been there, I'd stake my life on it. The freeloading, heavy texting, 'pacing with child so you can't concentrate and, in the end, take the child yourself' and the 'constantly declared love' etc, etc - all cynical control mechanisms, designed to achieve exactly the reaction you give him. Sounds as if he's quite practised at it, too. And he doesn't have to pay a penny. Reeezult! I bet, Amykins, you've found yourself 'getting used to it', haven't you? So used to it you've forgotten what a proper relationship should be like. All the excuses you're making. And he throws you the odd bone, a promise, a bit of sex, bet he tells you he 'loves you' - classic, classic, classic! Ever watched water drain down a plug-hole? That's where all your self-respect, self-confidence and grasp on reality is going. If he wanted to be with you, HE WOULD BE. I wouldn't believe a word this cunt said. And do you really want a man like this as your partner, anyway? Thank god he hasn't moved in. Tell him to FUCK OFF, and once he's there, tell him to FUCK OFF some more - get him OUT OF YOUR LIFE; get your life together, you and the littl'uns, and get on with it - and most importantly, DO NOT attempt to make any future arrangements that rely on him, (re kids), once the OFF-FUCKING has been achieved. He will never stick to any arrangements and you will just find he uses any as a stick to beat/control you with and you'll never be able to get on with anything as you'll be, for instance, waiting for him every other Saturday morning to take kids out and he doesn't turn up - this will also REALLY upset the kids - and they'll remember that - forever - believe me. They may even resent YOU for it - into adulthood. On the bright side, the fact you've posted here is heartening so all is not lost. If you were really sunk into, and your clear reason clogged with, the mire of deceit and self-deceit you wouldn't have. You'd still be trying to convince yourself, in spite of all the plain-as-day evidence, all this was plausible. Also on the bright side, usually with men like this, once they realise the well has dried and you are no longer falling for their bullshit, they almost magically disappear, as it is no longer in their interest or worth the effort to maintain the fiction, and move on to the next poor, gullible cow. Amazing how easily they can shuck it all off; the 'disposable family'. And yet, this will be the saving of you. They are really not worth attempting to maintain ANY kind of relationship with. So please don't kid yourself that the fortnightly visits you may try to keep up are for the good of the children. I would go as far as to say, they are severely detrimental to their welfare and well being, short and long term. The sort of manipulation (and power over you, Amykins) displayed by this man, and so many others like him, does not confine itself to their partners/wives. I do so hope you haven't abandoned this thread. Look up 'primary sociopath' on google.

[KaraStarbuckThrace]

Has it not occurred to you he is feeding his parents a tonne of bullshit as well.
He is manipulating you. He is emotionally and financially abusing you.
The fact your dd1 doesn't like him should be ringing enormous alarm bells. Making a minimum CSA payment does not a father make. He clearly only wants to look after your dd2 when it makes him look good.
I don't say the things to be unkind but because despite the unanimous verdict on here you still cannot see the wood for the trees.
Please try and step back and look at this situation from the outside. Hand on heart how would you feel if one of your daughters were in a relationship like this?

[surfingbabies]

Are you claiming some sort of benefits that you couldn't claim if he moved in??
My DP and I were in a similar situ when we first got together, I had three children & a house and he had a good job, his own flat but loads of debt......he stayed at mine 3/4 nights a week but came for tea nearly every night. We lived like this for about 3 years so he could clear his debts and I like you would pay for everything! DP wanted a baby but I said no as not a healthy situ to bring a baby into.....
I actually loved our set up as I got quality time with my DC and I trusted him so I knew eventually we would be a family........it was actually him that got annoyed with it & kept saying we don't feel like a proper family, I eventually let him move in after about 3 years.....he said he didn't care if he was in debt as long as we lived like a proper family as it wasn't fair on any of us but it wasn't setting a good example to my DC. We now have a 9 week old baby, he still has debts but he pays the minimum every month so we can be together
So mayb it will work out for you......
Sit him down and talk to him, tell him exactly how you feel. Let him know because if you don't you'll end up resenting him
Good luck x

[moondog]

Wow Garden, great post.
If more women in the world took your advice it would be a much better place for our children in particular.

[mummysaidno]

Garden, I was surfing / lurking . I am in same boat as op. To a tee. Thank you for kicking me up the arse.

[RandomMess]

Amy PLEASE give him his marching orders!!!

[giantpurplepeopleeater]

Amykins, this situation is very, very wrong, on all counts.

What I can't understand is that he has managed to convince you that him lodging with his mate for free and allowing you to live the life of a single mum while he swans in and out of your children's lives whenever he feels like it is what's right for the family.

What is right for the family, regardless of the debt situation, is that you are all living together, supporting one another, with him a full part of your family.

If the rent does not differ if he moves in, what difference does it make if he lives at yours or lives at his friends?

Also, any decent father would take the hit on the debts, and manage the situation, to be able to be there for his family. He wouldn't opt out and live the life of a single man at his mates.

I earn a similar amount. I have a similar mount of debts. It hasn't stopped me moving in with DP, or making a family, or contributing to family life. It is a stretch but I manage it, and am doing well at paying it off.

Beyond the money - there is the issue of support and his relationship with your DC. The child you share screams when left with him BECAUSE SHE DOES NOT KNOW HIM WELL ENOUGH.

Seriously, read that again. Your child's father is so absent in her life that they cannot settle with him.

Do you really want that for your child?

The fact that he doesn't want to support you in the future too, shows you just what life with this man would be like. He is very selfish and you seem unable to see it

[Anniegetyourgun]

But he's not even saying the right things. The correct response to a text informing you that your partner is sick is... well, I can think of quite a few responses that imply you actually give a shit about their feelings, but "are you horny" wouldn't come very high up in the list. Either he wasn't listening at all or he doesn't get the bit where someone else feeling sick means no, they're not particularly interested just now in serving your libido

The happy story from surfingbabies notwithstanding, there's no indication Mr Cocklodger intends to step up to do his bit. His parents thinking he's great is not evidence of anything. Most parents do that. (I'm very sorry to hear yours don't. We don't get the family we deserve, we just get what hand Nature deals us; you, a loving, hard-working sweetie, get parents who you're estranged from, Mr Cocklodger gets supportive parents who think the sun shines out of his comfortably parked arse. There is little justice in the world.)

[SundaysGirl]

Amy if this is your first time on mumsnet one or two posets can come across as a bit harsh and it can be intimidating for some people. What I have discovered over my time here though is that it is a rare thing where people are just being harsh for the sake of it on a relationships thread (AIBU is another matter!).

And the ones who seem a little more brusque are often the people who can cut through to the heart of the matter and seem to me to be very caring people who want to give good advice.

Just saying that because it might be a bit full on if you have not used these boards before.

One thing I wanted to add to what others have said is that it almost seems as though you are placing certain obstacles in your own way. you said you are worried about failing your degree which you have invested a lot of money in but don't want to look for childcare and have also booked two holidays which are going to cost more, especially if your partner is using the whole 'money for the families future' excuse to not contribute and move in with you properly.

You described your degree as essential so whether you deem it fair or not and yes in an ideal world the father ought to be helping with childcare, it is still cutting your own nose off to spite your face by not getting in some childcare to allow you to complete the degree, which in the long run will help you and the children.

Also it does seem glaringly obvious to someone not embroiled in this that your partner is using quite a lot of really crap excuses to avoid taking part in family life fully. The whole not helping out when you and the children have norovirus is very telling don't you think? He didn't want to wake you up with what? a sniffly nose? Or more likely he didn't want to hold your and the DC's hair when you puked and clean up sick?

He wasn't looking out for you all there, and it was a pretty pathetic excuse to use a cold for why he couldn't help out and even try to make out it was somehow for your benefit!

I hate to say something upsetting but do you know how most parents react when they know their partner and children are puking and shitting for England? With sympathy and with wanting to help out because it's bloody horrible to see them suffering like that. Sure we might not all love the idea of cleaning up puke cause, eh, who does? But the desire to care for and nurture, especially our children trumps that. He was too selfish to think that way which says a lot about how he feels about you and the children. Asking you if you are horny almost sounds like a purposeful rise to throw your situation in your face..who asks that when someone has the shits ffs?

Your partner comes across as extremely selfish and uncaring and it seems as though you are being taken for a huge ride.

However you do have options. You only have one year left of your degree. Why not get some childcare accessed and look into what is available for you as a single parent. He is not going to help, he is going to make life harder for you to complete the degree because you will be resentful and he will continue to drain you financially and emotionally.

[Amykins35]

Hi, I'm back. He is definitely not living with the ex wife! She lives 30 miles away and he has no way of getting there, not to mention the fact he despises her. The CSA money he pays would only cover one days child care per week - nowhere near enough - and I can only get child care help from uni for when I'm in lectures. I need to try and stop DD feeding to sleep so I can work at night I guess, it's just going to be difficult.

[Phineyj]

Amy why not post on the Sleep thread about getting your daughter to settle herself to sleep? People may have some good tips there.

[NotSuchASmugMarriedNow]

Why does he have no way of getting to his ex wife? How does he see the children that he had with her then?

[Amykins35]

Thanks. I've asked on a different website before but the problem is she doesn't eat much food, has always fed to sleep and co slept. I thought I'd be able to express for DP then she wouldn't bother waking so much... She just gets hysterical if I try anything different.

[Amykins35]

Because he doesn't have a car (he uses mine to drive our DD around). He doesn't see his other children.