"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's March 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly use it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1698597-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

Very good to hear the therappy is helping you... It might help to read some of the threads about, especially about FOG... I am surprised you would go to work and not rest after such a big 'fallout' from it all. Oh! I just read you know all about that already! ha! good good.

Very good to have a shield metaphorical or real! If it is so traumatic? is it more traumatic to not go? have a think about how you can best protect yourself rfrom them causing more damage and pain?

Its time to let you out, safely and not keep locking you away in deference to their prioritising themselves. you are important, and in this scenario your health takes precedence as your lovely DH recognises.

take care xx

how do you get rid of your anger? Pianos Wilde ? Just looking for tips on how we get rid of ours! ;) xx

yy lots of validity here and thats what they've always denied, tis crazy-making!

I tend to internalise it - I feel loads of guilt and blame myself for not being good enough, letting everyone down etc. The thoughts of self-harm are an extension of that I think. I really struggle to express anger in a healthy way. I snap a lot at my poor DP and feel angry with him for stuff that's not his fault

My therapist has suggested pummeling the hell out of a pillow or cushion - I have done that when I was a teenager but not for a long time.

i just realised how much I walk/walked to release anger (now I know why I always walk so fast!).

OH Pianos its so damaging isn't it, all that anger inwards. I've tried recently to shout - you know like when you stub your toe (I used to do that quietly!)

all trained into me by being completely ignored for any ills/injuries, of which there were many!

If you have an abusive partner, there's this amazing organisation that know about the abuser's tactics and the survivors reactions and fallout, better than they do themselves it seems. I wish there was an organisation like this for SH'ers ... maybe there is ... well at least there's books. I think a very good one I heard on here, simply called the 'children of toxic parents', or something like?'

Really good you are making such progress with the therapist.

I have been lurking on this thread, I don't feel strong enough to post my own stuff yet, BUT
Lottapianos ( not sure how to tag you in this thread) I was so concerned when I read about your feelings and Paroxetine (also known as Seroxat ).

When I was on that I had some of those feelings and it has been associated with more than one serious self harm episode in the UK.

I urge you to consider going back to your GP as a matter of urgency, it may not be the right AD for you. There are many others that might suit you better.

Please do go back to the doctor and describe your feelings as you have here.

I held back from posting this, When I read your post earlier today. I thought as I hadn't posted on this thread I had better keep quiet, twelve or so hours later I think I should say what I thought then.

Seroxat is a powerful ( and useful) drug, but it doesnt suit everyone.

Thank you for your post Skinidin I have had these thoughts of self harm before I took Paroxetine and they have been much less frequent since I started the pills 3 months ago. However I will bear what you say in mind and monitor the situation over the next couple of weeks

I did not post without thinking deeply about it.

Please, please talk to your GP.

The medication could be intensifying these negative thoughts.

((((Lottapianos)))

Does mumsnets do hugs ?????

Have them anyway ....

fairy my anger has dissipated since I stopped having my mum in my life, realised that she is a narc and let myself be me more. I have only had the self harm feelings of impotent rage, humiliation and frustration once since she left my life which has been.such an eye opener.

When she was in my life I thought my depressive episodes, self harming, drinking and disordered eating were part of me, I was damaged and just a shit person. Now I know she triggered all of this! She hates fat, is a problem drinker and hides herself away with depression when life gets too much. (then I would take over parenting for her).

I can't believe now that before she left my life I thought she was amazing. I thought she was kind, damaged, needed looking after by me. I would do anything and everything for her approval and happiness. Now I see that she is damaged but I cannot help her or be anywhere near her for my own.mental health. She never knew about my own issues btw - I was completely neutral around her. I was strong for her.

lotta you have really opened my eyes. Objectively from.reading your post it is clear that if your feelings are invalidated or rubbished throughout your childhood you will learn to stop communicating them to those who hurt you.

I never realised this and always thought I was just a very cold person. If there was a death in the family or other tragedy I would shut down and be very calm. Only much later would I start to feel things which by then would come out as stress symptoms (anxiety and panic attacks). However, not having my mum around any more, when I miscarried I noticed that I grieved straight away and had so.many feelings. It felt so healthy and normal. I was allowed to feel because she wasn't there sapping all of me or playing some kind of pain oneupmanship!

As for validity I have to say my son validates me with unconditional love that I never take for granted. He is a joy. Whoever he is, he is wanted loved and never, ever shut down! I ask his feelings about things all the time and take him very seriously.

Hi. I've not posted on here before, but I really need some help.
My mother is a narcissistic mother. Everything is about her etc.
seven years ago I had cancer. The treatment was awful, but not as bad as anything mother has had, apparently. Cancer is nothing compared to her suffering. I was at my worst over Xmas, she didn't phone for two weeks, just went on holiday. As a result I finally stood up to her and told her to get lost.

No contact until last year. I started to feel sorry for her (yes, I know) and have met her every few months somewhere neutral.
Last time I saw her she burst into tears and said how she missed her grandchildren, she's old, she's ill, it's cruel etc. I caved in, and she and husband are coming tomorrow. I am absolutely dreading it.
Now, as far as I am concerned this does not mean normal service has been resumed. I am not going to be guilt tripped into going over every holiday etc. However, I know my mum and she is bound to say " I wondered if you'd all like to come over for Easter?" Or whatever. How do I say no to her without looking sulky ( that's what used to happen). How do I keep her at arms length and not let her overwhelm me again?
I'm so sorry this is long but I am desperate.

mocking that must have been awful for you. Your mum let you down when you needed her most :(

Now she is back and from your post you sound frightened, railroaded and like she is pushing your boundaries back further and further. You say you caved in - this means something is happening you don't actually want to happen. You also say you won't let her guilt trip you but the illness and grandkids line is clearly guilt tripping and your response has been one of obligation not one of choice. You say you won't let her guilt trip you into further visits but then worry about being sulky if you say no.

If you want to say no, say no. Stand tall and be proud to assert yourself. If you don't want her over tomorrow, cancel. Don't listen to her! She is not a benign oldlady but has been very cruel to you. You matter, your feelings and anxiety over this matters and you can stand up to her :) your use of the word 'sulky' is very interesting - it sounds like a word a parent could use to denigrate a child's attempt at self assertion. Don't apply this cruelty to yourself!

Have you read about the fog. It is a killer to us children of toxic.parents and you are right in it. Only you can dig yourself out but we are here to provide support.

Good luck and I hope you are ok.

Thank you Rumpus. No I haven't heard about the fog, is there a link or something?

Mocking, if she asks you to come for Easter or anything else really, can you just say you already have plans?

You're right, of course I can. I just get in a flap as she starts asking for details; what plans, who with? She then does the "I'm old and don't see you very often" trick. She's done it for years and I still can't stand up to her without feeling churlish.

Mocking that sounds like a horrible situation for you. FOG is fear, obligation and guilt - 3 things you are conditioned to feel by emotionally abusive parents. Agree with other posters that you need to put your own needs first, but that's a skill you have to learn after so many years of being dominated and bullied. Psychotherapy is helping me hugely with this, is it something you would be interested in?
Skinidin thank you so much for your posts and your hugs, I love hugs!

mocking we are all on here because we get in a flap when our parents knock on our doors :( that there is the fog. Have a shufty at some of the resources listed at the beginning of the thread they might help you?

Maybe a more experienced stately homes poster can help you with tactics to deal with your mum. Tbh I can't think much beyond just saying you don't want to meet up and just staying schtum when she guilt trips you. Stay quiet, ride it out. And have a happy easter :)

Thank you for all your help and advice. I will look at all the resources and read some more of the thread. I will keep you informed about tomorrow.

Good luck today mocking.

I woke to a message from my mum today, first contact for nearly a year! She wants to go on holiday and come back with us all.together as a family again. For my brothers sake. How lovely.

I told her not likely. Not for my brother... Not for me... That she cannot ostracise her child like that and just expect me to forget it. That I wont be manipulated and pitted against my siblings any more. That I hate the way she treats my chronically ill sister and I won't be party to it any more. That I begged her not to disown me and she ignored me.

And I feel sooooooo good :). She wanted me to say I would go back so she could.go on her holiday for a few months light of heart. Ha ha mother dear! She will choke on my honesty. She really will. I am not in the fog! I will not be her punchbag! I am.not afraid of her :). (well I am a bit...hehe).

I would like to cuddle this thread and posters for existing and helping me feel less alone and stronger. Thank you.

Hi, can I join please. I have a thread here

Very welcome all newcomers.. sorry your situations make it necessary.

lots of useful links above, especially about FOG! and typical narc behaviours, which explain so oo much, and then each contributors own experiences are all so obviously similar and suddenly stuff clearly belongs to them and we are able to detach from it more.

huge ((((hugs))) to you all xx

mocking I hope you are okay, sorry to hear about your terrible mother and your illness.

wilde well done! I'll try and borrow some of your strength

Hi all,

I feel I had quite a crap childhood emotionally, not close to my mother at all then or now. Please could I ask whether you think the following example would be classified as quite emotionally hurtful? I've never told anyone in RL.

My mother would do things such as not bother to take an interest in what I was doing, playing etc. She had no time for me but seemed to have more for her other children. She would call me to watch my younger baby sister when I was aged 5 or so. If I didn't want to, she would threaten to give her away. I distinctly remember her shouting at me and getting the phone, starting to dial numbers 'to ask if they would take my sister away' then I would cry and agree to help. I have barely any memories of my mum spending time with me, she always insists I was a very independent child from birth

Anyway, just wondered what you thought

Good grief that's awful Waterfall! My DD is 5 and I'd never ever do that! Manipulating and blackmailing a child like that! She's lucky you were such a loving child that you didn't call her bluff or say 'go on then'. Tbh I'm speechless at her.

Waterfall, my parents used to do things like that too. Its horrible.

Marking place again, as this thread has disappeared from threads im on for some reason.
Good news my mums results were all good, she doesn't have breast cancer . And thinks seem to be quite on the Pil front, until today mil phoned the landline and dh looked less than pleased with the conversation they had, all seemed very odd, and mil hung on up on him for no reason...
She obviously ain't happy about something, i don't know exactly what the conversation was about, but it was definitely one sided re mil as dh was saying "no" to almost everything she said. I will ask him later what the conversation entailed, as got mum round at present.
Bet its some sort of bribe to get us to allow them access to the children...well that will not be happening!

((hugs)) to all of you that have narc parents\pil and i totally sympathise with all of you on here, its not easy constantly having to battle these people continually even when you least expect it.