DS not wanting to spend time with my DB....

[MrsMargoLeadbetter]

Not sure if this is relationships or parenting...but I'd appreciate input from others.

Background: My DB and I are very different but get along ok. Although we don't really organise to do things together. We both suffer from esteem issues due to our emotionally unavailable & passive aggressive DF. I still see lots of DF and so does DB as due to money woes he is living back with DPs. We live near each other.

Last year DB made a comment about how DH and I don't get back to him when he calls/leaves a message etc. I am aware that we don't make much of an effort to see him, partly as often just bump into him at DPs. He has recently offered to help us with decorating our house etc, so it was on my mind that we need to make a bit more of an effort with him.

The issue: Over the past couple of weeks DS (4.5) has asked about DB when I mentioned plans to see DPs as in "Will DB be there?". I took these questions to mean he was missing DB.

So I have organised for DB and DS to go to the cinema as a treat. He has been to the cinema a few times with us.

I mentioned this to DS today (tend not to surprise him, he seems to like advance warning) and he started saying he doesn't want to go with DB, could I, DH or my DM take him. I asked him why he said he doesn't like DB tickling him.

DB does tickle every now and then but DS seems to find it funny at the time, but I guess actually he doesn't.

So I am a bit unsure if I should insist DS goes along anyway, or go with them? DS is generally happy to go along to things, so I feel I should listen to him if he doesn't want to go? But also aware he is 4.5 and not sure he should be deciding what he does etc.

I will tell DB that he shouldn't tickle DS again as he doesn't like it.

I just feel a bit upset that my DS doesn't seem to want to spend time with my DB. And that my planned treat is seen not being viewed as such!

I think I find the idea of anyone not liking my DB difficult as it reminds me of the whole DF thing.

There is part of me that feels I should really talk to my DB about our experiences of DF but I just find the whole thing far too upsetting/overwhelming. I also feel I wasn't a very nice child esp towards DB and I carry a lot of guilt about that.

What a long post for a fairly short question. I just felt the need to get the rest out.

Thanks if you have read this far.

Erm, well I would cancel the 'treat' as it wouldn't be one for your ds.

If you feel guilty about your DB, why not spend some time with him yourself, one to one?

Are you concerned that your brother has behaved inappropriately towards your DS?

Thanks for the replies.

Heath I know I should but I just don't know if I could. I think if I am honest I avoid being on my own with him. I just find the idea of a emotionally charged conversation too much. My last therapist suggested I should.

Betty Rationally no, tickling on the neck/top of body is on clothed child in front of us all & there is no evidence of DB trying to get DS alone etc. I have felt that DS has generally like DB, so I was a bit taken a back by his stance and I did have a brief flash across my mind of "what has changed".

And obviously they can be a bit fickle. He hardly sees DBIL but at Xmas DBIL turned up on a DS charm offensive and DS has said a few times "When are we going to see DBIL?". Before xmas not sure he'd have done that.

Well don't feel bad about it. Sometimes we can't do stuff and that's ok in my book.

With regard to your ds, could you encourage him to speak up more for himself, so if he gets tickled, he can say he doesn't like it? As well as you telling your brother, of course.

Your ds is clearly telling you he doesn't want to be alone with your db.

Fgs listen to him or you will be ensuring the dysfunction which blighted your childhood and has extended into your adult life blights his.

I will tell DB that he shouldn't tickle DS again as he doesn't like it Do you really expect your db will listen to you and refrain from putting his hands on your ds?

He might pay lipservice to the notion, but of course he won't desist because it would seem that he's most probably cut from the same cloth as your df and has converted any 'self-esteem' issues he has into self-entitlement.

I find it curious that your response to your db's complaint that you/your dh 'don't get back to him' is to organise a 'treat' for him by way of a trip to the cinema which neither you or your dh have any intention of attending.

Don't make the mistake of setting your ds up to be some kind bridge between you and your db; a means by which you can appease your conscience by overriding your ds's clear and obvious desire to stay away from his uncle.

If you weren't a 'very nice child', especially towards your db, no doubt you had your reasons and it seems to me that, instead of carrying around a 'lot of guilt about that', you should consider counselling to explore your feelings and ensure that the powerlessness you experienced as a child isn't something your ds is made to feel by either his dps or his wider family members.

Guess so!

Will do, thanks. I am just puzzled why the change of view now. I did think perhaps he is becoming more aware of himself/his own opinion and knows that it should stop if he doesn't enjoy it.

If he gains confidence that you're not going to make him spend time with his uncle, your ds may reveal more about why he doesn't want to be around him/left alone with him but, if not, it's sufficient that he's expressed his wishes and you've respected them.

As for the 'emotion charged conversation' your former therapist suggested you have with your db, it could be that it wouldn't be 'emotion charged' for him and/or may open up a bigger can of worms than you can comfortably handle.

Sometimes it is necessary for us to make our peace with the past, and make any apologies we may feel is incumbent on us to offer others, in the privacy of our own minds rather than in actuality.

Xpost.

Blimey izzy don't hold back!

I am not sure if I wasn't a nice child, it is just how I feel I was mainly because of my DFs lack of interest etc. I believe I am an ok adult now, I manage to maintain friendships/relationships etc (outside the family are easier to deal with etc).

I maybe didn't explain it well in the post, but I think DH and I have been guilty of not always being as considerate of DB as we could have been. I am just aware he hasn't seen DS much recently, hence cinema trip idea. If I said "Would you like to go to the cinema with GPs?" he would have jumped at the chance. As mentioned I was surprised by his reaction.

However, you raise a valid point about my lack of relationship with DB yet hoping that DS will have one with him.

I am not sure my DB is being entitled. I have witnessed the tickling and felt that DS enjoyed it. Obviously if I believed he didn't I would have stopped it immediately.

I have had counselling (as has DB). It has helped a great deal but there are still issues for me. I will return to it when money is less tight etc.

Hear hear izzy. Wise words as ever.

Sudden change of heart is irrelevant. Just listen to your ds.

When I read your op, I felt quite urgently that you should not make your ds spend time with his uncle.

Your ds is being very clear.

Ok, you have helped me make up my mind, the trip is off.

Thanks for the responses, lots for me to think about.

When it comes to the welfare and emotional wellbeing of dc, Margot, I make no apology for not holding back and if I appear to have come on strong it's because you appeared to have every intention of making your ds go to the cinema with his uncle without any other adults to support him.

In saying if you weren't a very nice child, I was merely paraphrasing your words about yourself and attempting to point out that, 'if' you were particularly odious or less than charming to your db, there are no doubt reasons why you chose to behave as you did and it could be that those reasons are valid today, and may play some part in why you are 'not always as considerate'' of him as you could be.

There are some who only socialise within their family circle and are entirely happy about this, but the vast majority of those who live in Western society look outside the family for our friends and don't always make consideration for our siblings of paramount importance and, therefore, I see no reason why you should beat yourself up about your sibling who is now an adult male capable of ordering his own life.

I think that you are massively over complicating things in your mind here.

You DS should not be made to go to the cinema with DB. Full stop.

This guilt you feel from childhood. Why? Couldn't you just decided that you are no longer going to feel guilty?

Guilt is an emotion that (unlike others) can be more easily turned off. I think there comes a point when you have to give yourself a good talking to and decide to stop otherwise it can eventually become almost a self-indulgence.

Your a grown woman, your priorities are now your immediate family unit and everything else (including wider family), comes second.

I'm close to both of my siblings but none of us feel the need to prove our relationship in a 'demonstrable' way. If one of my siblings came over to help us decorate the house then I would probably make a cake, spoil them with tea etc and we would enjoy that time together. So I don't see why you feel the need to arrange something special like a cinema trip especially when you had no intention of going yourself.

Do you feel uncomfortable around your brother? Would the cake/tea scenario work?

It might be an idea to ask your DS if he would want to go to the cinema with your DB if he knew for sure DB wasn't going to tickle him. See how he reacts. Although I'm not suggesting the trip be rearranged in the absence of a negative response. Or could you all go to the cinema?

I HATED being tickled as a child so I can understand your DS's reaction, if indeed that's all there is to it (hopefully).

Thanks for the additional replies.

izzyizin was lots of cross posting going on. I do appreciate your input and I wouldn't have posted on the relationship board if I wasn't prepared to hear other views and input. Never posted here before, but lurk so know the score.

BettySuarez I do overcomplicate and over think, good point.

DS does go out with others, eg his friend and his mother so this wasn't the first time he would have doing something without us. I was hoping my suggestion would suit both DS and DB who likes the cinema/has an interest in illustration but obv I was wrong.

You suggestion of keeping it simple was a good one & something that we could do. I think I probably seek "fancy" solutions to cover up what is lacking etc.

carefulobserver DH and I revisited it with DS this am to see if we could gently prompt any more out of him. It appears that neck tickling is the problem and that tallys with him being sensitive about his neck when we are bathing him. We also said DB is due to come over with DPs for Mother's Day and is he ok with this and he said he was.

Anyway immediate issue has gone as DB contacted me (unprompted) to say sorry he double booked. So I said we'd take DS as I wasn't sure how long the film will be on. I took the opp to mention the tickling needs to stop and he seemed to take it on board.

Have also told my parents so they are aware.

Will naturally keep on eye on this and only organise things when we'll be there too.

Have found this all a bit upsetting, but it has made me think about my relationship with DB and how I need to improve it and how I feel about it.

I genuinely don't think there is a safeguarding issue of DS, but I have seen other threads where the OP cannot believe that their DF, DB, DBIL etc has done what they have done, so I know I need to be vigilant.

Thanks so much for all your replies and suggestions, it has been so helpful to be able to gain an external perspective. I really appreciate all of your input.

A couple of points, which I hope help:

If you're being tickled, you will laugh and appear to enjoy it. Also, social convention demands that children appear to enjoy it or get told off for being spoilsports, moody or whatever. Appearing to enjoy being tickled is not the same as genuinely enjoying it.
Also, just because he once enjoyed it,if he did, he doesn't now. So it has to stop.
Your Db has no right to tickle, your Ds has every right to request heis not tickled.
You seem very concerned about being v considerate of your brother, which is nice, but he's not the important person in this scenario. If the treat truly is for your DS, then your DBro should understand. If, however, the true story is that seeing your Ds is the treat for your Dbro (am not implying anything untowards, I hasten to add), then that's not right.
You do seem to be overly bothered about your brother, as I just said. I can't help wondering if you've taken it upon yourself, unconsciously or not, to be the person who makes up for his shitty childhood. If you examine this idea and see some truth in it, please know that a) you can't and b) you shouldn't. Apart from it not being your place, it won't work and it actually infantilises him and doesn't help, as it keeps him as someone to be pitied and aided, not a capable adult man.
You can't make your Ds like his uncle. And if any of this stirs up painful feelings for DBro, then that's his stuff to deal with, not your responsibility.

Finally, many experts see tickling without permission as a really negative issue for children. There's loads of stuff on the internet as to why this is (teaching them they should cede control of their bodies to adults, takes away their feelings of control and ownership over their own bodies, their feelings don't matter, you have to pretend you like touch that you don't really, and so on).

I wondered too why you feel the need to improve your relationship with your brother.

Can you define what it is that you think needs improving or why you think it is lacking?

Your guilt over your relationship with him seems to be the crux of this

Very perceptive OxfordBags.

Esp since becoming a parent (DS is my first) and having further counselling I have found myself just feeling so sorry/upset for me and my DBro as kids. Loving DS as I do, I just cannot understand how DF could treat us with such lack of interest/disdain etc. So I do on some level feel bad that DBro experienced what we did but yes it isn't my fault nor responsibility.

Interesting stuff about tickling etc.

Betty I just feel we aren't very close and I have a view that we should be. However, rationally we are as different as could be, and if he weren't my brother he wouldn't be in my life.

I just don't really talk to anyone (outside DH occasionally) about my relationship with DF and honestly I am concerned about being alone with my DBro and him wanting to talk about it. So I think that might be fuelling the guilt. I am not even sure if he wants to talk about it!