Question for adult daughters of fathers who were abusive to your mother.

[Ginebra]

Do you feel that loyalty to your mother prevents you having, or wanting to have a (better) relationship with your father?

Or, maybe loyalty isn't an issue.

Looking for the thoughts of adult daughters here. I'm trying to make sense of what I'm feeling.

Both my parents were abusive (to me and my sister) in different ways. My (alcoholic and otherwise narcissistic) father was also, I suspect (but can't properly remember) abusive to my mother. I do know that she tried to kill him at one point when I was under 7 (she poisoned the milk knowing that he'd come home from the pub and drink it, but he didn't drink it that night).

I have no relationship with my father. I haven seen him since DS1 was a baby. I decided that i didn't want to allow him the opportunity to emotionally abuse my child(ren) and that it would be better for everyone if I no longer saw him. He didn't exactly try hard to maintain contact (and has never tried to contact me since).

It certainly wasn't about loyalty to my mother. I have a strained relationship with my mother, who remains difficult. She's certainly not as bad as my father, but I don't feel close to her at all.

My childhood has definitely affected me deeply though. The older I get, the more I realise it was very fucked up and has left deep psychological scars.

How old are your DCs, Gine? I agree it's shit how we get affected and they get crap-all but we can't let the DCs see this, it's not fair on them. I keep telling myself I wouldn't swap with XP for anything, and it's true - he might get a nice carefree existence, but I get to be there for the majority of the time. And while DCs can be a burden, it's not forever. Chin up :)

They're 7-11 BB.

Wow Arbitrary, what did your mum use to poison the milk?

I'm not as good a mother as I would be if somebody loved me and cared for me along this journey. My tank is so f*ing empty and I'm trying to love my kids but sometimes it's hard. Also, 7 years of my x losing his temper with me has affeted my ability to control my temper with the kids. Granted, it is a bit different, as I lose my temper when they've ignored me the first 27 times I told them not to make a mess or eat more biscuits, but I'm sure, that once upon a time before I had kids and before I was 100% responsible for two kids (practically, financially) I used to be a calm, easy-going person who saw the humour in everything. Now, the irony is, my x is more 'carefree'. The man I used to walk on eggshells around in abject fear of his next explosion. He is carefree because he has loads of money, all the free time in the world, and two kids who always smile when they see him. He dips in and out of their lives as it suits them and seems quite laid back now. (apart from his determination to never pay a penny maintenance, but don't even get me started on that issue)

Thanks metimeatlast. Your dad sounds awful. Just incapable of being nice to anybody. first wife, second wife, children, grandchildren? at least it's not personal, just a consistent irritibility.

I wonder what i can do to make sure my dd isn't drawn to older and / or abusive men. I want her to have an easier ride through motherhood and relationships.

It must be very difficult for you op, really it must. I too used to think the sun shone out of my Dad's rear end; he'd pick me up in the school holidays and spoil me rotten with sweets and toys. But then I'd not see or hear from him for months on end.

I think you're probably in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. If you tell the children how awful their Dad is, they probably won't want to hear it and it could turn them against you. On the other hand, if you say nothing and then he abuses them, they'll turn around and say "why didn't you tell us?!" (which is how I felt).

I guess you just have to be the bigger person in all of this, do the best you can for yourself and your children. In time, they'll look back and see who was there for them the most, who looked after them when they were sick, or needed help with their homework.

My F was extremely abusive to my mother, I always wished he would leave but when we got a little my DM left him. My DM encouraged a relationship but I did not wish to maintain one, we never had one in the fist place I may add. I didn't see my dad from age 15 or 16 he died last year and quit frankly I was relieved.

It was not out of loyalty to my mum that I never wished to have a relationship but it was knowing he was vile and violent man who I feared along with (which is probably the more real explanation) his incompetence to have a relationship with his children.

I think she used weedkiller or something like that. I can't say for sure. Her reasoning was that she'd make toast for my sister and I in the morning and everyone would think that my dad had drinkenly tried to poison us all but only managed to kill himself. For some reason he didn't drink the milk when he came in. Apparently he always drank milk when he came in from the pub because the alcohol gave him heartburn. It's probably for the best that he decided not to that night; the consequences could only have been worse than my actual childhood was. It must have been bad for her to actually attempt murder.

Your situation sounds very difficult. You are doing a good job though and the most important thing is that your children know you love them and l

They are young, and I adored my dad at that age whereas my relationship with him is non-existent now. (His loss!) I should think they'll get wiser during their teenage years (sadly enough :() - he might not be abusive to them but they'll notice that they aren't his priority or that his love/attention etc is very conditional on them behaving a certain way, or they'll notice his reaction to things. It's fairly likely that over the next few years some of their friends will have revelations about their parents, too. I remember sitting down with a friend of mine at about 14 who was going through a hard time with her dad and basically commiserating that both of our dads were crap!

As for being drawn to unsuitable men, I don't know, because this did happen to me :( I don't want to blame my mum because she's been nothing but supportive all the way, but I think I picked up from her a bit that men are a bit crap and useless just by nature and they want sex all the time and that's just how men are - I never had any real input that men could actually be supportive, sensitive, respectful etc, I mean, I was told all of this but I think I assumed that men like this were so rare that if I found a man with one good point I should hold onto him tight and not allow the relationship to "fail". I think the best thing you can tell your DD, before she starts dating (and keep reminding her throughout the teenage years) is that boys aren't some separate species who are impossible to understand, some are flaky, some are immature, some are supportive, just like her female friends, and that she'll meet thousands of men over her lifetime and she shouldn't waste time with a crappy one because the odds are that

Have you ever done anything like the Freedom Programme? It might help if you haven't, to help that attitude of only wanting/tolerating healthy relationships to trickle down. (I also find that hanging around on MN Relationships board helps enormously!)

... Look after them. I think, in the end, we all work out that it's easy to play the Disney dad role. It's much harder to be responsible for seeing that everyone's fed, washed and clothed, that homework is done, to get up in the night and clean up vomit, etc. The person who makes us feel safest is usually the one who did all the mundane, crappy tasks of parenthood.

My ex (who was in no way abusive) is the ultimate Disney dad. He has more money than sense and no responsibilities. He sees DS1 in the schoo holidays (and plays games with him on Xbox live in between) and absolutely never has to be anything other than fun. He lets him play videogames all day, takes him on fancy holidays, buys him ridiculous food in expensive restaurants, buys him presents, etc. I doubt he's ever so much as told DS1 off. In comparison, I get all the crappy bits of parenting and have to be moany, nagging mum who imposes actual discipline. I console myself that once he's grown up DS1 will realise which role took more effort, commitment and love.

Your children will make up their own minds, in time. Be kind to yourself (easier said than done). My father became ill and disabled in later life and, to me, that was his punishment. He didn't need his children to cut him out as well. I think my mum did him no favours by trying to appease him all the time. He was always able to find some reason why she was at fault, no matter what she did. That had a massively damaging effect on me - I wish she'd left him as soon as she realised where their marriage was heading. Good luck x

Men like your ex don't change Op. Your dc will unfortunately see his true colours one day and form their own conclusions.

I forged a relationship with my abusive df in my twenties, having had very little contact for years throughout my childhood. He'd swan in once in a blue moon and spoil us for a whole afternoon twice a year if we were lucky! Even though my dm supported us financially and had to fight tooth and nail for the little she received from the divorce settlement.

But, it's always been a very tenuous relationship and no matter how much he likes to believe he's changed, it's only ever taken a minor disagreement for his despot, bullying nature to emerge again. I don't emotionally trust him and I'm only too aware of what my dm had to deal with.

I know it's hard and the injustice of the situation is so unfair but give yourself a break, sounds like you're doing a fantastic job!

Hi Ginebra, just wanted to echo bertie Botts. They will work it out as they grow and mature into adults - my experience is certainly that way. The reasons why my father was abusive and the reasons why my mother stayed, I have learned over time, are complex. My reaction to my father on learing about his behaviour was also complex I could never have adequately understood or rationalised these complexities either as a child or without the benefit of time and adult discussion with both parents.

I think I entirely understand why neither parent "blighted" my memory with the truth. I expect in time for your children the truth will out - perhaps they are a wee bit young to have to process everything that goes with that.

I thought I might share with you my insight to your loyalty point. I personally was able to deal with my fathers behaviour to my mother without rejecting him as my dad, - sure I had different feelings and thoughts about him but I still loved him until the day he died. BUT, you should know that did not mean I was not loyal to my mother or that I somehow loved her less. I love her fiercely and loyally too.

We do talk about his behaviour. She continues to tell me he was a wonderfull Dad - which on one level he most certainly was. But on another level which I now see as an adult (and which I am very pleased not to have seen as a child) I believe that the best thing a father can do for his children is to love their mother. This he did not do. And my mother knows exactly what I think about that.

So I guess what I am saying is let it be,...the truth will out at the right time for you all. Good luck with your situation Ginebra

As a child I remember seeing my father sitting on my mothers neck calling her a 'N*ger lover. I remember him coming home on a Sunday afternoon and spewing up booze out of the bedroom window, trying to pass his kids cigars, getting into our beds because he didn't know where his was . I completely understand my father was an awful, terrible husband. He was usually a funny daft dad too! I was always a 'daddies girl'.. strange really. Not sure what I'm trying to say.

My dad was aggressive and hit my mum. I never saw much of that as was usually in bed. Plus it happened more before I was born, siblings witnessed and received it too I was around when he was older and not so fit. His cross to bear apparently as I'd be awful to him as a teen.

I did love him and got a lot from him but he was an angry man. He taught me to be assertive so have never taken any crap. He was very family minded strangely, just couldn't control himself.

His childhood was awful. He probably could've done with some sort of therapy? But tended to drink a lot when younger.

My mum glosses over it. He died in his 50s, she ended up with man 25 years her junior and is still with him and she's in her 80s Goes abroad now, he isn't aggressive and looks after her.

I have never gone for an aggressive man, neither did my sisters. Dbrother ended up with a drink problem but he's mellowed with age and is ok.

I hope you and your dcs come out of this ok OP.

Did you leave him btw?

I suppose what I'm trying to say is as a child you want to see the best of your parents