Do I leave or stay?

[AzureBlue]

Still agonizing over leaving or staying with my husband.

I don't love him but we both want to see the kids every day (9, 17 and 22 at home, 20 year old will live at home from May too). A (divorced) friend says I might not get custody if I did leave and I can't afford to rent somewhere anyway. I tried to buy a houseboat this Jan but it went under offer immediately after my husband saw it and before we talked it through (I would need him to agree to underwrite the loan using the existing family house mortgage). He can have the family house so the kids have the usual base to go to. I just wanted a 3-bed boat worth 1/5th of the price. But if I don't get to see the kids anymore I would rather put up with staying in the family home.

My husband is a nice man, not horrible to me, so I have no grounds for divorce. This is why he'll get to keep the house and kids. Also, he has told me he will not give them up. He is really happy living with me. All our friends think we have the perfect marriage.

Day by day we can eat at the same table and discuss the kids and work. I just can't bear him touching me or the thought that we will end up just the 2 of us together.

We have done counselling for 14 months - husband stopped it when every session ended in my asking for divorce.

Currently can't bring myself to wear my wedding ring - my only sign of retaliation. My husband thinks I'm like this as a temporary thing because I'm menopausal and/or need to see a shrink. Maybe he's right and I'm justs mis-remembering our marriage. I've offered to see another counsellor by myself (he's done with counselling) but he would rely on me to sort that out. I should be so happy to be with someone who loves me.

What is the best way to sort myself out to be content? I really want the kids to be happy. Probably best achieved by staying. It gets harder.

Have you sought legal advice? Beyond hearsay from a divorced friend.

I suggest you do. Then work with the facts.

I think you're leaping to a lot of incorrect assumptions at the moment, are motivated by guilt, being influence by a man who thinks you are mentally ill , and need to urgently get some professional advice about your rights and responsibilities in the event of a split.

"My husband is a nice man, not horrible to me, so I have no grounds for divorce. This is why he'll get to keep the house and kids. "

This for example. Marriages break down all the time without anyone being horrible to anyone else. (Although accusing you of menopausal mental health problems is pretty nasty) Divorce can be on the very simple basis of irreconcilable differences. 'No fault' divorce it's known as.

The house is a marital asset. In the event of a divorce you are entitled to an equal share of that asset plus any others that have accumulated during the marriage. He does not therefore 'keep the house'... it is as much yours as his.

Your children also remain yours and the model used today is 'shared parenting' i.e. 50/50 access arranged either mutually betweeen you and your exH or via the courts.

So please get some proper legal advice from a solicitor because, at the moment, you seem to think that because you're the one motivating to end it you're supposed to just drop out of sight like you never existed. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Do you know if you would be content, living alone? Is there someone else who has caught your eye & in truth you're imagining a relationship with him? Does living with your husband hold you back in some other way? Looking in from the outside (I'm long term single myself) there does seem to be a 'ho hum' stretch in long marriages, but I've more than once seen older couples who stuck it out, re-discover each other once DCs had flown the nest.

PS what do you mean by 'mis-remembering our marriage?'

Can't add much to Cogito's excellent post. You do not have to stay OP, and I think your husband is manipulating you with the menopausal / mental health thing. I do not believe those to be the words of a 'nice man'. Your kids need you to be happy, and you are not happy with this man. Stand up and fight for your rights, you have the right to be happy and the right to your share of the assets.

I don't want an ugly fight over house/kids as it would make it worse for the kids.

Also, my husband really has done nothing wrong so I feel I have little rights if he really does want sole custody (apart from maybe I could press for doing the school pick-up and minding the 9 year old until he came home from work). I can't really afford a flat so can't see how to move anyway.

Even if a solicitor said I would have some rights, I don't think I could enforce them if it meant a battle.

However, have been trying to find a solicitor through divorced friends but cannot ask my nearby circle of friends as they all think we are blissfully happy and it would put them in an awkward situation.

The divorced friends I have asked all say it is so heart-wrenching to get divorced and then so lonely that I really should not get divorced and should just stay.

It's great idea to see a counsellor alone and focus on stuff you do want in your life and it would help you decide how best to assert your right to your physical boundaries and what is and isn't ok with you.

You might be able to stay, with some adjustments, but have something like your houseboat dream as independent space. An allotment with a really well appointed shed can be a genuine refuge! A friend of mine belongs to a gym that is home from home and my dream is a caravan . I'm sure I saw a tv programme where someone build a virtually self contained garden building for less than the price of a houseboat.

You sound kind and fair and you deserve to be happy as much as anyone. Although I'm not a counsellor in any way I'd suggest that you have been straight with your husband about your feelings and you don't need to worry any further about convincing him it's not 'just a phase'. Detach and let him cope in his own way with whatever explanations make sense in his head and enable him to stay happy. Your job now is finding out how to create your exciting new life.

Good luck xx

The mis-remembering bit is my husband has always been perfectly happy in our marriage and thinks it's always been great.

I found it hard to be with him, even from the first night of our honeymoon I considered leaving him but thought I'd give it a chance (9 months later and I was pregnant accidentally despite living 100s of miles apart and seeing each other only occasionally). Once I had a baby I was utterly reliant on him for everything and could no longer do my (badly-paid but rewarding) job.

Oh my goodness - so you've been living a life of quiet desperation for 22+ years? Its never too late to make a new start!

Thanks Isabeller...I have a recently taken on a blissful art studio space but have little time to go there!

I also think that it is so hard to still look like the Perfect Couple to everyone when actually you are not really a couple at all. We still go to things socially together - and my husband is keen to go with me - although I think I'd rather go by myself!

How can I not like my husband? He's supportive, a great Dad, loves me.....I just can't appreciate how lucky I am. We have lovely kids, a house we adore....what am I thinking of, to leave it all??? I must be crazy!

"Even if a solicitor said I would have some rights, I don't think I could enforce them if it meant a battle."

That's what a good solictor is for. When you don't feel like you've got much fight left in you, a good solicitor can be your wing-man/woman.... strong on your behalf.

When you say your husband has done 'nothing wrong'... can you unpack that a little? You've already mentioned how having a baby made you 100% reliant on him. During your marriage have you been able to say or do whatever you like? Do you have access to money of your own? Have you felt encouraged and supported in your ambitions? Are your opinions taken seriously and acted upon?

You see.... when you say your husband is perfectly happy in spite of your clear unhappiness, that sounds like a man that has his head in the sand & doesn't take you seriously. To then accuse you of just going through a menopausal phase needing psychiatric therapy sounds like a nasty man, not a considerate one. I have a bad feeling that the reason you feel so ground down and wanting to just disappear is that you have been ignored, made to feel worthless and surplus to requirements.

There are more ways to be horrible to someone in a relationship than to black their eyes or shout at them.... Crushing their spirit is one.

24 years actually - the kids are planning an epic 25th anniversary party for next January - despite the fact we did not mention our anniversary date this year (husband had Noro-virus so I was spared the restaurant dinner, thank goodness).

"How can I not like my husband?"

Emotion is not a rational thing. We can't possibly like everyone we meet, no matter how nice they are or how much they do the right thing. You say you were unsure about him right from the start and although sometimes it's possible to grow to love someone, equally it's possible that your feelings have never really changed.

You are entitled to your own feelings and do not have to justify them.

I find it very hard to ask for my wants and needs from him - I feel undeserving.

But he has encouraged me to go back to work and I run a very successful business from home, around full-time child-care of our kids.

This does limit my earning and also I feel guilty working during the holidays - although I'm in the house with my 9 yr old daughter. I also tend to work every weekend and most evenings to make up the hours when looking after kids and house. My work is very time-consuming. I see my husband spending increasing time with our youngest as I'm so busy and also do not want to be with him, so find other excuses to be out of the house when he is there. This would probably mean the kids would choose Dad over me. I do the mean homework/music practise/after-school activity boring Mum routine.

I am more self-assertive since working and also since our Relate sessions which really sorted out all sorts of hang-ups for me, but did not help my husband to address any issues - he tends to not talk about something if it's a problem (and I'm a bit like that too, actually - so a dreadful combination!).

None of the above means you should just walk out without a backward glance.

Oh but I am glancing backwards...I seem to have spent my whole life looking backwards....and I'm still considering, considering.....oh to just be content!

To me, your whole demeanour has a ring of depression about it. You sound very hopeless, detached, guilty and self-reproachful.... characteristics which have a lot in common with depression. If you've been in a relationship for 24 years which you have always felt was not quite right, that can ultimately lead to depressive symptoms, low self-esteem and so on. If you were to break free.... retaining your parental role and with your fair share of the marital assets so that you can make a fresh start .... and felt more in control of your own destiny and happiness, I think you may find that it is a great weight off your mind.

As you say this has been since the day you get married I think you really need to do counseling to work out why you felt like this on day one and only then will you know how to move on with your life either with him or without him

Do you think pills for depression would help? Husband has suggested they might but my Relate counsellor thought I was not depressed - we had a session on this.

I am very bubbly and up-beat about all my out-of-the house things. Only have a problem with personal relationship with husband. 'Only' !!! actually everything else would be just great if the personal relationship was good!

Maybe it's just me as I do have problems establishing warm relationships (other than with my kids)- I did not have any boyfriends in my teens and have very little experience with men being interested in me. If I could work at this problem then I might find it great being with this nice man. I just am out of ideas and patience trying.

I felt like this on honeymoon because we did not know each other very well, and I found it a huge shock to be with someone 24/7 - really smothered.

I really needed a bit of space (not to walk entwined the entire time as my arm was hurting) and when I asked for this my husband sulked and wouldn't talk to me. He is very dependent on me for his emotional life and happiness - I feel so responsible for his well-being, and now for his unhappiness.

A friend has pointed out how lucky I was/am to have someone who wants to walk arm in arm.

I also felt a-sexual as he wanted to read in bed even on our honeymoon night - without noticing me. But he does want sex - and through our marriage I have been the reluctant party, although I think I have a normal sex-drive too.

A counsellor is not a doctor and neither am I for that matter. :) Only a doctor can decide if you're depressed and I've known all kinds of people - some who I would describe as bubbly and up-beat - who have suffered. Anti-depressants can help deal with certain symptoms, if appropriate, but they can not fix your environment. i.e. that you don't have a good relationship with your husband.

As for not being able to establish relationships, do you have friends or colleagues that you are close to? If so, then you do not have a problem forming attachments.... you're just with the wrong guy. We've all been there.

My first real boyfriend (when I was 16/17) was a lovely man. We split up eventually and I met him again recently 30+ years on. He's still a lovely man & we're friends now but there's no 'spark' of attraction. If he'd been my one and only experience of an intimate male relationship, if I'd married him and never gone out with anyone else, I'd probably be wondering if there was something wrong with me as well.

"He is very dependent on me for his emotional life and happiness - I feel so responsible for his well-being, and now for his unhappiness."

Some people find that kind of dependency endearing whereas many others (including myself) would find it suffocating. He read in bed on your honeymoon?... If you've always been the reluctant party sexually, again, that just says you're with the wrong guy

I remember your earlier thread, Azure. He is not nearly as perfect as you describe: you previously mentioned, for example, that he lacked empathy with you, and offered the silent treatment when you disagreed.

You also mentioned his teaching and praying when you were desperately sick in hospital - that he just left you to it. Yet then, and now, you think he is a good person. Perhaps he is in some respects: but he comes across as very cold.

Your friend doesn't know what he's like in the relationship. Only you know.

You are not lucky to have something someone else wants but you want to be free from. I am so glad to hear about your studio, I might be banging on about counselling too much but a really good counsellor might be just the person to help you decide to put more of your time and life into your art and to stand up to your children's expectations in a way that helps them gently to a more realistic picture of you and your family.

It is so difficult to change but it can be done.

Have you read Gaining Ground by Joan Barfoot? it's a wonderful, inspiring novel about a woman who has the courage to really leave, dare I say a feminist classic.

What Cogito says about depression too, a doctor/clinical psychologist/psychiatrist is the right place to start for a diagnosis not a friend or counsellor and if you are depressed addressing that will help you move forward. Are you afraid that getting help for depression would stop you doing what you know is right for you?

...and as before, because he is happy and you aren't, you perhaps have the idea that it's all your problem or you need to learn to be content.

So it seems he's still quite unconcerned that you're not happy? His happiness is all that's registering with him. :( he just thinks you need medication.