to not want bil to hold DD tightly and not let go?

[littlemisssarcastic]

I don't know how you would describe it, apart from to say every time he sees DD, he gets hold of her, puts his arms around her and holds onto her tightly, usually whilst saying something like 'You can't get out of this can you DD! Go on, try to get out of this then!'

I cannot leave them in the same room together, because it seems as soon as they are alone, it starts again. I'm sure DD can't be enjoying it??

I have asked him to put her down, said she doesn't like it, even physically taken DD from him, and tbh, there have been a few times when he has held on even as I am pulling DD out of his vice like grip.

Sometimes, he doesn't take any notice and just says 'She likes it.'

Perhaps it is the grimace on his face as he is holding her that makes me very uncomfortable about the whole thing.

I have tried speaking to my family about it, and don't go round bil's much anyway, but family's response is to say it doesn't happen when they are there, (oh yes it does) and then to be very sarcastic about it and say 'Well don't go to bil's house then?' meaning I would hardly ever see my sister.

I try to go when bil is at work, but since he works very irregular hours, and doesn't have regular days/hours he works, it is difficult to keep track.

[FooffyShmoo]

Sorry probably not remotely helpful but this sort of adult power play over little ones gets my blood boiling.

[diddl]

Can´t help thinking if she walks in & announces "don´t do it as daughter doesn´t like it"-he´ll turn it onto your daughter & say "of course she does, don´t you Little´sdaughter ?" & do it anyway.

I´d be tempted not to go tbh.

[BangOn]

God, I'd probably be threatening to call the police. Screw trying to normalise/ rationalise his behaviour for the sake of happy families.

[Svrider]

So everyone else has said it better than me
But reading thru the posts again, I think YOU need to be clear on one thing OP
Your DD is not in a position to stop this
It's up to you
Don't let your little girl down

[giraffesCantEatNHSPotatoes]

what a wanker

[WorriedMary]

I have two boys and Dfather and DFIL often partake in rough and tumble play with them - i.e. piling on top, lifting them up, rolling round on floor, pinning them in close and seeing if they can wriggle free and my kids love it! It's a bit like watching lion cubs play. They also let them win as well so it's not about adult power over children.
But if there was any hint of distress they'd just back off completely. DS1 didn't like it at first so my Dad backed if and didn't dream of upsetting him as he had respect for him.

Your situation sounds completely different and I'd have to shout at him to leave her alone! What a Twat!

[littlemisssarcastic]

Thanks for all of your responses. I have always felt unbelievably angry when I see him doing it. I have tried to be 'nice' about it, whilst asking him to let DD go, but obviously that hasn't worked.
The reason I don't like bil is because he has overstepped the boundaries with both of my DC and whenever I have tried to pull him up on it, the family have closed ranks and made me out to be making a big deal out of his behaviour.
Bil is spoken to, but it's as if the family think I am over reacting.
When push comes to shove, family always choose to side with Bil.
My family do prefer to sweep things under the proverbial carpet. If i don't agree, they use the 'grind LMS down and keep telling me how I am making a big deal out of things,how i am upsetting sister' and that can go on for months.
The other thing they do is constantly ignore decisions I have made, and therefore I have to continuously reinforce my feelings over and over, and that goes on for as long as I stand firm, months and months of uncomfortableness for me, but you are right, I cannot let DD down anymore.
Am on phone, but will shortly post with an example so what I have just said becomes clearer, because I fear I have rambled on a bit.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

Your family are treating you very badly and that kind of language & ganging up sounds dysfunctional.

[littlemisssarcastic]

The way my family work is like this.
Bil was nasty to DS years ago. I was speechless at the time. I couldn't quite believe what he'd done.
DS was preschool at that time.
I told Bil to get out of my house, then I told my mother and sister what had happened and how i didn't want Bil in my house ever again.
My sister told me in very detached clipped tones that if I cut off her husband, I was effectively cutting her whole family off and i was no sister of hers.
I didn't want to back down, so I said if that's how she felt, then that was her choice. She left.
Then my mother began ringing me and turning up at my door at all hours telling me i was breaking her heart/making her ill by falling out with sister.
I told my mother what had happened and she just kept saying 'how long are you going to continue this for? You're not always right LMS. I can't bear you and sister to fall out. It won't happen again.' and on and on.
Then i went to my mothers one day and Bil was sitting there and everyone was behaving as if nothing had happened, all laughing and joking. Mother had already put meat in the oven and everyone was happy so i stayed for dinner, then left hoping it was a one off. Of course it wasn't. It seemed everyone had forgotten how I felt and that meant that every time I went to mothers, she would either talk about sister and Bil and how they were, to which I would say I'm not interested, which started up the lecture about how i was making mother ill again, making a big deal out of things again, that incident happened ages ago, I was told it wouldn' happen again, what am I hoping to achieve by constantly bringing it up etc etc.
Or Bil and sister would be there, like it was prearranged when I turned up, although of course it never was, was just a coincidence and I had an overactive imagination thinking that.
Then when i got up to leave, I was apparently wrong and wouldn't let it go. Apparently it did me no good to hold grudges.

I got worn down with it all, which is exactly what they intended. So I just made sure DS was never alone with Bil. Didn't stop mother or sister suggesting Bil look after DS while we went to the local shops. Even though I refused, I got grief mainly from my mother for that.
The whole thing just became the unspeakable.
And no one respected my decision because it didn't fit in with what they wanted.

[MrsMushroom]

What do you plan to do when/if it happens again? Which tactic will you use?

Also you do realise that abusers do this...they break down barriers in public to make it more acceptable when worse things happen.

[littlemisssarcastic]

The way my family work is like this.
Bil was nasty to DS years ago. I was speechless at the time. I couldn't quite believe what he'd done.
DS was preschool at that time.
I told Bil to get out of my house, then I told my mother and sister what had happened and how i didn't want Bil in my house ever again.
My sister told me in very detached clipped tones that if I cut off her husband, I was effectively cutting her whole family off and i was no sister of hers.
I didn't want to back down, so I said if that's how she felt, then that was her choice. She left.
Then my mother began ringing me and turning up at my door at all hours telling me i was breaking her heart/making her ill by falling out with sister.
I told my mother what had happened and she just kept saying 'how long are you going to continue this for? You're not always right LMS. I can't bear you and sister to fall out. It won't happen again.' and on and on.
Then i went to my mothers one day and Bil was sitting there and everyone was behaving as if nothing had happened, all laughing and joking. Mother had already put meat in the oven and everyone was happy so i stayed for dinner, then left hoping it was a one off. Of course it wasn't. It seemed everyone had forgotten how I felt and that meant that every time I went to mothers, she would either talk about sister and Bil and how they were, to which I would say I'm not interested, which started up the lecture about how i was making mother ill again, making a big deal out of things again, that incident happened ages ago, I was told it wouldn' happen again, what am I hoping to achieve by constantly bringing it up etc etc.
Or Bil and sister would be there, like it was prearranged when I turned up, although of course it never was, was just a coincidence and I had an overactive imagination thinking that.
Then when i got up to leave, I was apparently wrong and wouldn't let it go. Apparently it did me no good to hold grudges.

I got worn down with it all, which is exactly what they intended. So I just made sure DS was never alone with Bil. Didn't stop mother or sister suggesting Bil look after DS while we went to the local shops. Even though I refused, I got grief mainly from my mother for that.
The whole thing just became the unspeakable.
And no one respected my decision because it didn't fit in with what they wanted.

[CartedOff]

Your family sound manipulative and horrible and quite frankly toxic. They don't care about anything but getting you to toe the line. I would distance myself from them rather than be expected to put up with all of that and the way your bil treats your daughter. None of this is normal.

[littlemisssarcastic]

And like any toxic family, they're not nasty all the time, but when they are it's awful. I always come off worst.
I have swept so much under the carpet over the years, mainly because of how nasty they can be imo.
Of course, they always justify what they have done, that's if they even acknowledge it at all.
I am still angry about many things they have done but I try to push it out of my mind because I will never get them to acknowledge or apologise or amend their behaviour.

It's surreal sometimes the way they are indignant about the way a friend has been treated, yet I sit there listening, screaming in my head that 'but that's almost exactly what you did to me and how can you reconcile yourself to thinking it is terrible what happened to your friend when you did that to me???'

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

I agree they sound toxic. I am sorry but from your posts, you are right and they are wrong, which means you need to stand your ground.

Your mother has no right interfering. She sounds quite toxic herself.

Many people have to avoid their entire family for reasons as you describe.

Can you explain what was the horrile thing your BIL did?

One thing - just because you let it go before, or made up before, or haven't got angry before doesn't mean you are trapped playing their game forever. You can draw a line n the sand any time. You are entitled to make a fuss. You are entitled to ask for fair treatment.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

Oh I want to send you a hug. They sound pretty awful and I would avoid avoid avoid them.

[littlemisssarcastic]

So yes there is a huge back story. I have very few friends and the only support I have is from my family, so I get through the bad times now as best I can, because otherwise I would have no one. Not a single person.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

They reconcile thinking that about the friend because they are damaged, their damage hurts you, they know it's wrong but they cannot face up to it so they pity someone who had the same because that assuages guilt a little without causing them the crisis of re-evaluating their own behaviour and lives.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

Oh I'm sorry it's like that just now.

Go on the stately homes thread in relationships, you are not alone.

What support do they give you?

[Pagwatch]

It's incredibly difficult and you have my sympathy.
I once turned up to see a family member and the man that had sexually abused me was sitting there.they honestly expected me to get over it and have lunch.

The thing that helped me was recognising that whilst I had never had the courage to stick up for myself, I refused to let my dc get sucked into the same situation. So I started dealing with it.

Yes it was painful but so worth it. I now see the fab family members I love. The ones who were awful know never to start with me. And a couple I simply refuse to be in the same room as.
I am not angry or argumentative just if I turn up and they are there I leave.

Don't let your dc grow up thinking that manipulative behaviour is what families do.
Good luck.

[Pagwatch]

LMS

You may have no one else because all this disfunctional shit is not leaving you room or energy for normal friendships.
But better to be alone modelling kindness and support to your dc that pretending that ganging up and passive bullying is ok.

If you draw clear lines and stand up for that people have to move around you. They only manipulate you because they can.

[littlemisssarcastic]

Bil picked up DS by the shoulder of his jumper and threw him across the room, while we were all in the adjoining room because DS was deliberately standing in front of the tv while Bil was trying to watch the football. . . . in my house!!
18 Months later, after many many uncomfortable conversations, after I had decided not to leave DS alone with Bil, we reached an uneasy truce where I accompanied DS everywhere.
We all went to a farm for the day. Over lunch, DS and I were sat at a picnic bench and Bil decided to sit opposite US with nephew.
DS (3) pulled faces at nephew and i decided to ignore and said to Bil 'just ignore him' after asking DS to stop being silly.
Suddenly, nephew began crying and as if out of nowhere, Bil leant over the bench in lightening quick time and punched DS on the shoulder, Bil face contorted with anger.
I didn't have a car at that time so told mother I wanted to go home and she clearly felt uncomfortable explaining to sister why we were going so told me to wait and stay away from Bil for rest of day until we got home.
It was after this that I told sis that Bil was not welcome in my house ever again and we had the conversation as explained above.

Strangely enough, when Bil punched his own DS a couple of years later, sister told him that if he ever did that again she would divorce him. Again??? She seemed to have forgotten that he HAD done it previously to my DS!!!!
And that is not even covering the nasty things sister and mum have done to me.

[YellowAndGreenAndRedAndBlue]

Oh LMS, I think your family have done things that go so far beyond acceptable.

You would be better without. I echo what Pag says about friendships being easier when these people are not eating your energy.

He punched your son? That is a crime, you could have reported him.

How do they support you? Is it practical support or just he feeling of being alone if you cut them off?

[littlemisssarcastic]

Mother and sister have been there to help me in whatever way they can, financially, helping me out with DD when I have been struggling and needed time out before I lost my mind.
They have given me furniture, mum had DS over at weekends so I could work. My sister gave me a job.
Lots of other things that i can't think off the top of my head. I live in the arse end of nowhere and they will take me shopping or to pay my bills when my car either has no petrol or is off the road.

[littlemisssarcastic]

I also have quite bad social anxiety and my mother mostly will go places with me to get DD and me out of the house.
I'm ok when i am with my mother, also it helps my mother because she is disabled now and struggles with getting out on her own.

[CartedOff]

But they bully you relentlessly, even when you are trying to protect your children from a man who crosses boundaries, has been violent with them and enjoys taking out his frustration on your daughter. Or gets jollies out of forcing her to be close to him :(