"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Thanks fi. It's good to read here about how others are managing. The stories on here are all so sad. All the suffering and pain just seems so preventable, but it happens all the time to so many people.
Hugs to everyone xx

I also feel that going NC with the NARCs in my life will be difficult.

I know that if when I go NC with my mother, I will be written out of her will again. She will take great pleasure in telling my DB that one! If I am not available to be her emotional punchbag, then her final punishment will be that, cut off from the family money and the family name. I do worry that my disabled DS will be left with nothing because of it, but OTOH, if she is prepared to do that to her own flesh and blood, then the money would be tainted.

I do know, however, that if I do go NC with her and she becomes frail, no one will look after her, and the guilt of that is almost overwhelming. (I am aware that this is a fucked up way of thinking).

Bedtime I think we all want to have a mum to talk to, like we're supposed to have when things get sticky, and the pain we feel is almost like bereavement, for the Mother we 'should' have had. I think Fi makes a really valid point about how tiring it all is to spend so much time 'dancing to their tune', but it is the yawning gulf of the unknown, of the endless false hope that one day she will turn round and apologise, and everything will be as it should, but that's the FOG falling again isn't it?

flipping welcome, and sorry to hear about your painful childhood. There are wiser minds than mine here who will be able to help you, so I'll just offer you a hand to hold.

In my area you can have free counselling through a church group - the counsellors are all qualified & volunteer a couple of hours a week each. Might be worth investigating?
The guilt of low contact has minimised gradually over the last year for me so it's probably a long process.

CaptChaos - I feel that guilt so acutely. My mother is disabled and will only get worse. If I go NC none of my siblings will step up (rightly so really) The thought of that is crushing. I worry would forever feel a horrid selfish person.

I'm lucky in the fact that my mum has nothing to hold over me with regards to a will etc.

Thats good, mw. Why low contact not nc, less inflammatory? Am wondering if i should have gone same route- they wouldn't have noticed and wd have been less of painful drama and nasty letters.
Re counselling, id say fine if you can get someone good-cbt may not be deep enough to deal with these issues.

I might look into that Midwife99 thanks for the suggestion.

Huge I haven't gone NC. I have disengaged and reduced contact. When I see her I ignore all victim and martyr stuff..totally superficial. Mine would claim to be disabled, but it's amazing the things she can do when I'm not there to whinge at do it for her.

GoodtoBetter - I've read your great escape thread- well done on getting out! The problem is, my mum IS disabled and it will get worse we know that.

It's an awful thing to live with and she must be very frightened but she has always favoured ill health as a sympathy tool long before she was diagnosed. If I'm honest she was almost gleeful once the tests confirmed it.

And worse still, it's hereditary but we aren't to talk about it with her as a) That's too painful for her and b) She is the expert and she is telling us we don't have it she can tell. Meanwhile she is refusing to attend the genetics appointment to give blood so we can check for certain. It's a late onset thing so I'm apparently just to enjoy the next 15 years or so and not worry about it. She has also admitted that shes' scared if we have it we will stop seeing her because we won't want the reminder of what's to come- like she did with her sister who was more advanced. It's all selfish.

Gah - I'm rambling now!

But writing this stuff down seems to help a bit.

I've gradually reduced contact more & more & haven't actually seen them since last summer so although I occasionally respond to a manipulative begging text or email I'm pretty much NC.

Dh went off to move mil fridge, he spent 6 hrs up there and it turned out that he had to saw a double cupboard into one as fil had made the wrong measurments and the kitchen was said to be in an apalling mess. They didn't even bother to tidy up their state of a kitchen before they knew he was coming

Dh came home with all the dcs christmas presents pil & sil have been witholding. They stank like damp and i'm assuming we only got them finally due to the fact they were cluttering the house.
Anyway was going to return them but 2 of the dc have already seen them so they have opened two of them so far. Presents are ok, can't moan about them, just kind of angry that the kids never got them at christmas.
Mil bought me the same bracelet she bought me last year, that woman never ceases to amaze me.

Why did these people buy my dc xmas presents, yet not let them have them until feburary, not only that i'm trying to de-clutter now we are approaching spring.

It feels like that family have descended their bad vibes into my house and i have bags full of smelly xmas presents waiting for other dc when they come home.
The thing is it will set them off as they already know why we don't see pil anymore and kids can be mercinery to presents...

Not sure I really belong here as I wouldn't call my childhood abusive. Unhappy, sure, but not abusive.

But today I realized, after a Skype conversation with my mother on Sunday and an IM chat with her today how much I just don't like the woman. If she wasn't my mother, we'd never be friends.

We've not been getting along for awhile, because I've been calling her on her bullshit, but it really hit home this week. She said, about a mole I had removed from my throat, just by my windpipe, "Thank god it was benign. Cancer on your throat would be really bad."

To which I replied "Cancer any where would be really bad." And the look on her face was just...I can't even describe it. Like it never occurred to her that cancer period was bad (despite having a sister with breast cancer), forget that any treatment might disfigure me.

And then today we were discussing my son, who is being referred to ENT for possibly getting steroid nose drops for his allergies, as antihistamines aren't really doing much, and she said "I don't want him to have steroids." Like it's up to her.

This all comes on top of a numbered list that she sent me via email after her last visit (she is in the US, BTW, I'm in Belfast) outlining all the ways I'm a horrible mother. Which I told her I wouldn't even speak to as it was ludicrous and she wouldn't listen anyway.

In any case, thanks for reading the above and hi! My name is Tee and my mother is not a nice woman.

Hi Tee!

It's hard to categorise it isn't it? My mother never lifted a hand to us but emotionally has set out to hurt us on many occasions. Would I class myself as abused? I don't know and I don't think it matters does it? Just recognising that the behaviour isn't acceptable to you - however you label it - is enough I think.

Has anyone here made a comprehensive list of the things that have hurt them? On the one hand I'm considering doing it because it's been incredibly easy just to put it down to "her being her usual self" that I've not processed it all as harmful so I think that might help.

On the other hand, is it useful to dwell on the past stuff though? I'm worried seeing it all written down will freak me out completely.

This afternoon an ex tried to friend me on facebook. He tries every 6 months or so and I always ignore him. I'd class that relationship as abusive and don't want him in my life in anyway. But it has led to some painful realisations connected to my mum. I was 15. He was 25. She was happy for it to go ahead because he provided her with cannabis. If she was having a 'down day' or was broke she would refuse to let me out until he caved and offered her some for free. Reading that now makes me feel sick. She pimped me out for drugs basically. And seeing stuff like that, written down, makes me more determined to distance myself which can only be a good thing.

Hi Tee,

Some other posters have expressed similar re not knowing whether they belong on this thread or otherwise. I have posted this from the beginning of this thread, apologies if you have already read this but it bears repeating in any event:-

"One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's.

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth.

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

Toxic Parents written by Susan Forward is a good starting point.

FWIW I think your mother is toxic and I would detach even further now; you do not need her incessant and pointless witterings in your day to day life. She does not seemingly bring anything at all positive into your life at all.

Limit all contact via Skype and e-mail; infact I would send all her e-mail to spam.

Hi Tee - no my parents didn't abuse me either but they neglected me & manipulated me. That's enough in my book! If your relationship with them hurts you, it's toxic. That's all.

To be honest, Attila, I have read this thread (and it's past incarnations) a few times and it is responses like yours that have turned me off from posting.

If the only advice and support available is, to coin a MN phrase, Leave The Bastard (or cut out the bitch) then I find that not good advice or support.

You have been told of 3 instances in 44 years of my life. That is hardly enough to tell me my mother is 'toxic' and I should limit all contact. There is so much history you don't (and probably never will) know and many many reasons to not cut her out completely.

But I mostly just wanted to type that out and see how it felt, anyway.

Huge I don't think it's useful to dwell too much on the past, actually. I know one thing I have accepted with my mother (and my father, but he's a whole 'nother story) is that she will not change. No matter what I say and do.

I don't know where to start. It's my mother. She has taken in the controlling role after I left an abusive relationship. Today I realised this. I am totally floored by the knowledge. She supports me practically and financially. I can't let this continue. She is a rug puller. I feel so very very lost and alone. I have no idea where to start. Sorry. Hate to moan. How can I do this. I am not strong enough. Explains everything. Destructive relationships, low self esteem, eating disorders. Oh god. Why was I so blind. What if I repeat the pattern. Oh god.

Tee,

Unbelieveable!.

Was wondering what sort of response were you expecting?.

Where on earth did you get the idea of LTB from?. (Actually when people write that it is more often than not for good reason). Also that has nothing to do with what you were writing of in the first place. People can and do go low contact or no contact for good reason.

Why post on this thread at all if all you are going to do is shoot down people who have actually spent some time writing a reply?.

"FWIW I think your mother is toxic and I would detach even further now; you do not need her incessant and pointless witterings in your day to day life. She does not seemingly bring anything at all positive into your life at all.

Limit all contact via Skype and e-mail; infact I would send all her e-mail to spam."

Right there, is where I got the equivalent of LTB, Attila.

And how about some sympathy and empathy? And I did read the first post so, really, the rest of your reply is just condescending.

Sorry to bother you. I obviously was right in thinking I didn't belong here. I'll not be back.

Tee I think you're being rather unfair. We are not here to fight with each other. We're ALL sick of fighting. No one was being condescending or told you to leave anyone. Perhaps you feel very uncomfortable about what you shared being seen by others as being wrong?

Hi newcomers, welcome to the thread, please keep posting here if you need to, you will find some of us come here a lot to offload to other understanding ladies, I find it really helps clarify things in my head. I can't offer much advice I'm afraid as I have only recently gone nc and am starting this journey myself, I'm sure the other kind posters will offer something more constructive though

Midwife- could you fill me in on the church counselling, i think it's offered in my area too, ( or perhaps we are near each other! oh how exciting! maybe you were my midwife! ) is it free? Do you have to attend church do you know? I'm still waiting for my NHS counselling, I can't afford private, if I could it would be money well spent, however expensive!

I've caught sis selling my baby's clothes I loaned to her on Facebook. It's funny really of all the crap and nonsense I've put up with, nothing has quite floored me as much as seeing the little hat I brought my daughter home from hospital in ,for sale for £3! My fault for loaning them I guess. Also should know better than to look at anything with her name to the left I guess.
I still have other things of dds, just thought she would have had a heart and left them on the doorstep or passed them via a friend or something.

Tee, I think midwife is spot on - I hope you will come back.

Attila speaks from experience and that's all any of us can do, feel free to take what you find empowering or helpful and ignore the rest.

I'm in Malvern. No they don't expect you to be a church goer or even a believer & they don't use religion in the counselling. It's just a free service qualified counsellors who happen to be members of the church offer to help others. My own experience is that they tend to be semi retired "gentle" types of counsellors. You're not going to get deep psychotherapy but a listening ear & support.

Oh no ,we are not near each other! Im in another uk country. Thank you, I will give them a ring tomorrow, really could do with just a chat I've not had any counselling yet, so have no idea what to expect.

It's def worth doing. Our local GPs recommend them as NHS waiting lists so long.