What will I do now (quite long, sorry)

[MordecaiMargaret]

Hi, I posted before on Christmas Eve, basically about how my dh was hateful & passive aggressive and blamed me for causing a fight when I challenged him on it. Also, the next day barely spoke to me, when I asked if we could hold the fight for the sake of ds and having dinner with a big bunch of his relatives, told me yeah but I wasn't thinking straight and had to stop acting like a child.

Fast forward a few days, we're still in his parents, he's been on and off grumpy and annoyed with me but I've ignored it. I'm also living in Aus and away from my family & friends so I've been quiet & withdrawn from being lonely coupled with the atmosphere between us. He hates when I show I'm sad or lonely over this and thinks me incredibly rude when I'm not always happy and chatty around his parents, I am for some of the time but they're difficult in themselves so there are some times when I retreat to my room for 20 mins or watch tv with my son, don't contribute much to conversation instead of doing stuff with them. I'm kind of an introvert so not life and soul of the party kinda person especially with them who have made it clear in the past they don't really like me.

Sorry to ramble on, I'm working Friday and h is off. He said he's putting ds in Childcare that day. I expressed surprise because it was the first I'd heard of it. Later I said, in a throwaway comment 'ds will prob be one of the only kids in childcare Friday' and went on chatting to his mom. His mom said 'oh no is h ok, he looks frantic'

I went upstairs where h blew up at me. 'Can you not question every fucking thing I do with ds' on and on about how I make him feel like shit. He gave out loads to me saying I was such a difficult person to deal with, how I had ruined every Christmas since we got here by moping around feeling homesick and trying to make him feel bad. Always going off on my own and not just rude to him but ungrateful to his mom.
I told him I don't need his permission to go be on my own and I do it so they won't have to see me upset. He said yeah whatever. Fine, I walked out of the room, heard him mutter fuck you. I turned around and said what and kinda laughed.
He came right into my face 'don't you laugh at me, don't you dare laugh at me, just wait until we go to yours for Christmas and see what I do then, just wait till you have friends over and I'll do the same to you, I'll ruin everything, just wait'
I said 'are you threatening me with this'
He said 'no, I'm just telling you to wait and see'
'Thats you threatening me'
Then his mom calls us down for breakfast, we go down and he's fine, asking me questions, chatting away like he usually is.
I came up to take a shower and I'm dreading what happens now.

I know if I were home I'd just take ds and stay with someone for a while but I don't know anyone here. We're leaving today so a plane & train journey awaits with just us and then he's off work for a week. Will I just shut my mouth and keep the peace. Even if he only gives me the silent treatment it's hard because he thinks ALL of this is down to me being a grumpy bitch because I'm lonely and my behaviour is what makes him blow up.

Sorry for the long, long post, any advice or insight is appreciated, even if you say I'm in the wrong, just have no one to talk to and clarify things with. Thanks for reading.

I'm sorry to hear this. He sounds very controlling and unpleasant. Of course you're lonely, he should sympathise and care.

Where are you leaving to go to?

Is it to go home? Do you know anyone eg a workmate or neighbour?

I think I posted on your other thread and I will say what I said there. Your DH does not like you as blunt as that it, he sounds very resentful of you and anything that makes you sad or in need of emotional support that he just does not want to give.

Out of interest does he TELL you that you are being quiet or moody? When you hadn't really felt that you were being? Does his anger about feel out of proportion to what you are actually doing?

Dear OP, I can imagine what you're feeling at the moment. I live in the UK but am from abroad, and Christmas are sometimes really hard, to say the least, being away from your own family, different weather, different ways of celebrating.

I have to admit that I have been extremely sad and moody at Christmas at times, and probably not the best of company. So I can see the need you have at the moment to be on your own.

My husband, who is from the UK, finds it hard to understand how I feel during this time of year. I don't expect him to any more. I just try to go through the day and make the most of it, but there is alwayst something that makes me very tense about the whole Christmas experience.

There seems to be a lot of hostility coming from your husband, and I think the season's expectation to be merry and jolly the whole time never helps. In fact, I think it makes things worse, in my case, at least.

I'm not sure I'm in a position to give the best of advice, but I would say: Please allow yourself to be human and have the feelings that you have. They're very real, and they're valid. You are on your own, in a different country, surrounded by people you haven't chosen to be with (except your DH and DS) Try to work out where the hostility comes from in your husband, even if you have to confront him again and have another argument. I think it's best to be honest with each other, and have it all out, rather than to let things boil inside.

He's definitely trying to vent his frustration about something deeper, but he's doing it by dealing with the superficial. You need to have a honest talk with him, so you can begin to free yourself from his emotionally abusive behaviour.

All the best

Hi MordecaiMargaret. Has your dh always been like this?

jess we live in a different part of Aus, we were in the city his mom and stepdad live for Christmas. I've been here 2 years but we've moved a good few times so I haven't made any close friends. There are some other moms that ds has play dates with their kids but I'm not really close enough to open up to them. Going to make more of an effort to become better friends.

akaemma I appreciate the bluntness because its something I need to hear. It's hard to get my head around tho as he can act completely differently. I used to be quite secure in how loved and liked I was. I knew he had a problem with me being more emotional than him but never really thought he was manipulating me, just poor him having to put up with me. He does things for me and ds without ever having to ask. I'm always told by people how he's always talking about me, how proud he is of me and he always goes out of his way to be hospitable and helpful when I had friends or family to stay. Another reason I'm finding it hard to take in is because I can't believe I didn't cop on earlier, I should never have gotten on the plane with him.

Looking back on everything now, the start of all this when I asked him why he was so angry with me that's when he started TELLING me how my behaviour eg moody, withdrawn was causing all this and causing me to not think straight and accuse him of crap. I thought I was actually fine up till then. They had relatives over and I was chatting away & interacting with everyone, helping out etc.

mmbovary thank you, it's good to hear someone who feels the same. I know I'll have to have a talk with him but tbh whenever I try to broach anything it turns into accusations and explanations about how he does so much for me and how I make his life hard.

soila I think he has always been like this but to a far less degree. When I got pregnant unexpectedly I remember thinking he was really angry at me when I became emotional. He completely withdrew. Also when we were coming over here we used to argue because I was understandably very upset and nervous at leaving everyone. I was in love with him though and believed his explanation that he was overwhelmed at how much support I needed and just withdrew because he didn't know how to help, but I remember saying and thinking 'its like you hate me when I need support'

Now that I think about it, the best example of how shit he is and how this is a tactic for him is when we were flying here. On the stopover, I was tired, sad and emotional after travelling with 2 yo ds. I was being quiet, a bit irritable and teary. I said something to him in irritation, can't really remember now, he lost it, gave out loads to me through gritted teeth and I ended up apologising and sitting on the plane crying he sat next to me scowling and ignoring me. I'm crying now thinking what a fool I've been ignoring all the signs.

He always made up with me and was never as nasty as he was these last few days. He professes to love me and all the rest of the crap I want to hear.

I have to admit to something that maybe messed up this whole dynamic though. There have been times when I've been really upset at his behaviour and he's asked me what's wrong (in a gruff, impatient way, not out of concern) and I've told him I'm upset cos I'm homesick because I've been scared to challenge him and start the accusations and fight.

I know if I was home this wouldn't be happening and I'd never have put up with this for so long. I used to be so confident but my self esteem is shot to shit since I've been here. I'm going to try and organise seeing a counsellor this week which will feed in nicely to his 'you're crazy, you make things up' theory.

Thank you all

I think it's interesting that his mom thought he was not ok. Frantic.

It is totally understandable to seek some time alone when staying a few days with people. Even they probably welcome some time to themselves.

You H is being particularly nasty.

At difficult times, I used to sit with ex, explain how I felt and try to get to the bottom of his point of view or his issues.
It did help.

Although, it's quite difficult to always be the psychologist in the relationship.

If he can be that nice to people outside he should be able to be with you too and care about your feelings. At the very least to ask what's wrong.
Not good that he is dismissive.

You really need to find your inner strength and get your confidence back, have friends, etc
Wish you a good trip back.

Hmm, the "you're crazy, you make things up" is classic gas-lighting, undermining behaviour.

MordecaiMargaret - I'm glad to hear that you are planning on going to see a counsellor. Is it just for you or would it be for both of you be it together or separately?

That's exactly what I was thinking dequoisagitil, classic gaslighting. Also the swinging between being really nice & really nasty is pretty classic EA, keeps the victim wrongfooted and adds to their feeling that they are imagining things.

I'm getting a hint also that he's starting on the old "you're useless, be grateful you have me because no-one else will put up with your (insert "flaw" here, be it being moody/ too fat/ slob in the house/ stupid etc) and I'm doing you a favour not leaving you" thing.

If this has been going on for a while now - one thing to keep in mind is that the best predictor of future behaviour is relevant past behaviour and it will remain so unless something is done about it.

soila At the moment I'm just going to get counselling for myself because I can't understand how I got here. He has me half believing I'm crazy or flawed - I need to get strength and clarity before I tackle this because there's something in me, even now, that wants to go out, hug him and try again. I think I need to fix whatever it is that made me think I deserve this before we start counselling for the both of us.

Looking back, we used to row and I used to call him on all the crap. He (seemed to) change, apologise for snapping etc but somewhere along the way he wore me down and I let so much go because I'm scared of confronting him and scared at his reaction. When I think of the girl I was when I met him, I feel so sad now because I think she'd be disgusted with who I am now. Weak, apologetic and willing to take blame and feel shit in order for a peaceful life.

It's morning here now, we got the plane & train back yest. Didn't speak except when necessary. Usually I would've made friends but not this time though to be honest I was tempted to now before I read all these replies, thank you.

Yesterday, I felt strong, angry and justified but today I feel sad and deflated. Thankfully I'm going to work so I won't have to see him all day but I need to think of something to do at weekend so we won't be hanging around each other.

I'm just trying to remember the times he's got in my face in arguments and when I used to try and get away and basically cower he'd get even angrier 'what are you doing, you're making it seem like I'm going to hit you, is that it, you think I'd hit you, I'd never fucking hit you'

He actually tried to make me believe my cowering and physical fear was me trying to piss him off. It's like I see everything more clearly now but I'm still so afraid to bring all this up with him.

Thanks everyone

MordecaiM, your H is a classic emotional abuser. If you're cowering in fear of him he's likely to escalate to more overt physical abuse. Intimidation is typical when verbal abuse is becoming less effective. It's also typical for abusers to get enraged by tears and calls for support.

It doesn't matter that he's nice the rest of the time. All abusers are. :(

Please do get counselling for yourself, as soon as possible. And please avoid couples counselling, as this tends to be very unsuccessful, even damaging, in relationships where there is abuse.

It will take a lot of courage to make changes. But this treatment of you is very, very wrong.

Thank you ladyWordy, I need to come back and keep reading all these posts. I'm finding it really hard to get my head around the fact that he's an emotional abuser even though the evidence points to it. I'm finding myself slipping into thinking 'oh it's not that bad, you're being dramatic' and I have to try hard to remind myself it's not me who caused this.

With emotional abusers, are they aware of what they're doing all the time? Are they that manipulative and devious or do they truly think its your fault for making you act that way?

Should I just not bother trying to explain how I've copped on or will I just try to detach because he'll never believe my side anyway or never believe himself to be a bad person?

In the past he's shown what I've thought to be true remorse and shame for what he's done, is this just a front or something he believes for a while until the next unacceptable thing I do to cause his behaviour?

I don't really know what to think anymore and I'm dreading when he tries to make up with me because I don't know how to react.

He also wants everyone to think it is your fault by being nice in front of everyone else. 'It must be her because her dh is lovely'

Two things in your last post to bear in mind.

'I'm finding myself slipping into thinking 'oh it's not that bad, you're being dramatic'. He does the switching between nice & nasty to create that feeling in you, so you remember the nice phases & dismiss the nasty ones as YOU over-reacting.

With emotional abusers, are they aware of what they're doing all the time? Are they that manipulative and devious or do they truly think its your fault for making you act that way. Does it really matter if he is aware of what he's doing or not? Whether he's aware or not isn't going to change his behaviour; if he is aware then he actively intends to behave that way, if he isn't aware he's doing it despite all your comments then he isn't going to be able to change - if he'd wanted to change he would have by now.

Sorry hit post before finishising.

In the past he's shown what I've thought to be true remorse and shame for what he's done, is this just a front or something he believes for a while until the next unacceptable thing I do to cause his behaviour?
THIS is the one that tells me his gaslighting is having the desired effect - desired on his part I mean. He even seems to have you partially believing that its YOUR "unacceptable" behaviour, in other words all YOUR fault that he is a vicious bullying abusive bastard towards you.

No he will never believe himself a "bad person" as he believes he is entitled to behave how the hell he wants with his "possession" i.e. you.

Unfortunately you are in a more difficult position than many women in your situation, he's managed to physically detach you from family & friends about as far as possible (isolation is another common tactic in EA), so not as easy for you to just walk out. Others on here will be better equipped to tell you the safest way for you to get out of the relationship, but get out I think you must .

He doesn't sound very nice at all. Very aggressive and unpleasant. It also sounds as if you dread being alone with him. It sounds as if you are not sure if what he says is true about you, as if you are casting around in your mind to try to work out if you are a grumpy bitch and moody etc. That doesn't really matter. You might be moody but you don't have to be married.

Hi MordecaiMargaret,

Your world is changing and fast. You sound like you have reached your tipping point and something is, not might, going to change - whichever way it goes.

Regarding counselling for yourself, one thing that is so powerful about the reason that you gave for going is that you are looking to accept responsibility for where you are, which I can tell you is very rare - you don't have a victim mentality. That is always a very strong starting point because in reality, you can never change what you don't own and you are taking ownership of your current status.

Have you given some thought about how to find a good therapist? I seem to remember that you are not in the UK.

I was horrified at what he said in his rant to you. No way would I have just put up with that- it was venomous, aggressive and vindictive over nothing. I would be gone with fear and loathing of him, never wanting to see him again.
Never been spoken to like that and would never want to be.

Soila thanks, although it seems like everything is just the same, you're right, my inner world is changing very fast. I know this sounds like a terrible cliché but it's like like someone turned on the lights and I can see everything clearly now.

When I came home from work on Friday, he had made my fave dinner, unpacked & did laundry & cleaned the house top to bottom. We ate the dinner in silence apart from me saying thank you. After he insisted on cleaning up I was in the bedroom. He came in' to talk'.

He told me how I had ruined Christmas again. His examples of my bad behaviour were at dinner one night his mom was talking about being in the supermarket and being disgusted with how a mom couldn't handle her kid. I just said when I saw things like that now I just felt sorry for the mom especially because you know everyone's judging you. Apparently I said this in a cutting way.
He also said I rolled my eyes when his mom gave ds a present from Santa. Tbh I prob did do this because i had told her that we would be getting his presents from Santa and to stick with (the lots & lots of) the presents from them. I did apologise for these and said I didn't mean to be rude.

So after his ranting which included his disappointment that I wasn't better this year I told him how I felt. I said how he acted like he didn't like me at all, had been getting nastier and nastier and that no matter what I'd done I didn't deserve that aggressive and threatening behaviour. I told him how his response was not proportionate to what I'd done.

His response? 'I have to get away from you, why can't you just take it that you're in the wrong and apologise, I always have to grovel and apologise to you (not true) and now that I'm justified in this and I deserve an apology, you're turning it around so that I'm in the wrong again' He then got kinda upset and said 'how do you think it feels for me, you've ruined another Christmas for me & my family and instead of taking responsibility you're picking on something I did to deflect blame'. He then left for a half hour and came back, hugged me and said we'll be friends now.

Usually I would've felt angry and frustrated that I got all the blame and there was no recognition of his part or bad behaviour but now I just feel detached. We're normal again now, took ds swimming etc yest but I'm only doing it for ds. I know now there's no point in trying to make him see my side because he simply can't. He really thinks I'm a difficult person and his behaviour is justified. He thinks he's some kind of martyr to have to put up with me.

His family never, ever show emotion, they act the same if you gave them a million dollars as they would of you kicked their puppy. They're like robots. At the start, he said my openness and honesty in how I feel attracted him but I know now it makes him feel uneasy and defensive.

digerd you're totally right of course but years of subtle insidious behaviour have stopped me from seeing things clearly. I was very strong like you and never put up with anyone speaking to me like that. My self esteem has been completely depleted slowly over time. Unfortunately, he can't see that it's unacceptable but it's not as easy as just walking out.

I have to work hard at being stronger and to get myself I a position where when I leave, I'll be confident in myself and won't be tempted to come back. There is a high risk of that at the moment because most of the time he has succeeded in making me think I'm not capable on my own.

Thank you all, your responses are helping me become stronger x

Hi Mordecai. Again he's putting the blame on you & trying to persuade you that he's the reasonable one, and reinforcing that by being nice (making your favorite dinner, cleaning the house etc), then talking down to you like you're a child. I note no signs of remorse this time?

You need to get yourself to that councellor/therapist quickly, if only to prove to yourself that it IS his behaviour that's unreasonable. TBH if he's deluded enough to believe that he is in the right, he may well encourage you; however I really don't know whether it would be a good idea to let him know you are doing this as he may try to prevent you if he does know exactly what he is doing.