Near breaking point due to non-sleeping children

[TooLateToApologise]

Sorry about the length of this - don't want to drip feed. I also wasn't sure where to put it. If anyone has an idea of a more appropriate place please let me know.

I have 3 year old DD who has never slept well and 6 year old DS who slept well right up to when his sister was born. If we had DD first I'm pretty sure she would be an only child.

Not only are our DC not sleeping but they are noisy. Run up and downstairs always needing another drink, shouting and screaming. We say no DD starts wailing very loudly. One of them will finally sleep the other one will wake them up - sometimes deliberately. We have tried bribes promising treats and we have threatened and withdrawn all sorts. Nothing seems to work.

They are getting worse. We are in a small house with only one and a half bedrooms. Moving isn't an option and even if it was we can't afford a bigger place . To begin with we put the DC in the big bedroom and crammed our bed in the single room.

This has been going on for a few months since we moved here. I knew one day the neighbours would complain, quite rightly in my view as they have a toddler themselves who sleeps in the room next to our two. Wish we'd had the guts to go and see them to apologise before they did. But how can you apologise if it's still going to happen? Now it's awful because they didn't complain to us but to the Community Safety Wardens. First we knew of their existence was when they called to investigate.

Our latest attempt to improve things has been to switch bedrooms. We had to buy bunks to do so although we couldn't really afford them. Hasn't worked I end up with at least one of them in the double bed with me. DH is on the sofa downstairs most of the time.

So our marriage is going down the pan, not just the separate beds but the whole situation and particularly the lack of sleep causing rows.

The neighbours have just had cavity wall insulation installed - feel terrible that they have had to go to the expense (hope they got a grant to do it). Don't know if it's likely to have made a difference, can only hope so. We rent and there is no way our agents would get the landlord to do anything similar. A complaint to them will have us evicted and homeless.

Tonight DD has been asleep with me for a couple of hours and DS finally about an hour ago. DD starts at nursery in January so hopefully this will help. We have been getting her up earlier than she needs to be in preparation and she falls asleep in the afternoon so it's not like she doesn't need the sleep. DS is being home educated at the moment - no places available at the local one, he is top of the waiting list. Keeping everything crossed for a place in January. I suspect and his last school suspected that he has an as yet undiagnosed SN. He paces around his room making whooping noises. The GP is the next step afaiac but we can't even agree on that.

I need to go for myself anyway and will probably go back on anti-depressants as I am not coping. DH is off work long-term originally for MH reasons but now has a physical problem stopping him going back. It really worries me that social services might become involved if both of us are being treated for MH alongside the Home Ed or maybe that would be for the best

Poor you, it sounds absolutely awful.

Do go to the GP. Go without your H if he won't agree.

Do they go to bed at the same time?

It must be hard not having space to separate them without causing disruption to you.

I would be beyond firm with them. Especially the 6yr old as the 3yr old is probably copying. Every time either of them get out of bed its the naughty step and a toy gone! Everytime, without fail until they learn bed means bed and mum and dad aren't having it anymore. This must be done by both of you and will be exhausting until it works.

It's become a game to them and it has to stop. Bad habits die hard but this one must change! Also consider their daily routine, getting up time etc. if they get up late wake them earlier so when bedtimes comes you know their tired!

Go to your gp and get some help for you! Good luck and stand firm!

No more threats. Threats are useless unless you carry it out.

You should still be under the health visitor if they are under 5. Speak to them. They do have some good advice.

Mine are like this when we stay with relatives and they have to share a room. Bedtime has become too much fun. These are my top tips! They might work for you, I hope some do.

Make sure they have an outdoor play at the park or in the garden with a ball or a walk about 3.30pm for an hour. So lunch, normal messing around then out. Come home, if they are dirty then straight in the bath. Pjs on or " relaxing clothes" which is the same for the older one. Cook them carbs, pasta, mash potatoes, roast chicken dinner with a pudding ideally with custard. Now it's 6.00pm.
Straight upstairs. Teeth brushed. Cuddle both on one bed and they both get to choose a story or two. You read it. Then they both get into bed. I'm not su about bunks as its too easy to loose control if they mess about. So try the singles again.

They stay in bed. Then you say, right, no more talking, and into bed, dim light, and you do a made up one, like the 3 bears. Don't restart it if they mess. If one gets out, calmly put back in. Say if you don't stop, no tv tomorrow for you. Don't keep repeating it. Next day, if they have messed no tv. They can play with toys instead.

When you have finished the story, kiss goodnight and sit in the room with a book. If they get out or talk say no into bed and put in or say no more talking. Be very nice and very calm. Don't be drawn into more kisses or talking, just say, no its sleepy time now, no more talking. We will discuss tomorrow. Stay in the room until asleep.

You could take the lo upstairs first and wait until they are alseep following the above plan, then go back for the older one who is allowed to watch a bit of tv - something calm, not cartoons. Lo will fall asleep v fast I expect.

They will mess about and egg each other on, but say no talking.

In the day, you can tell them the above calmly what wil happen at bedtime. The older one will give in first if you don't deviate from calm and firm. If you get shouty and excited they will.

Sorry this is long, but I really feel for you.

Call you HV, get her round and talk her through this. Hopefully she can give you some practical advice on how to teach your children to sleep.

I think lavender gives good advice. You will need to do some serious sleep training. I would speak with your hv or gp. Then decide on exactly what you are going to do an be very very firm. Then I would consider knocking g on neighbours door with a bunch of flowers or box of chocolates telli g them you are about to comment sleep training which may involve some additional wailing. You are very very sorry but you hope it will take no more than a week and then it will be better.

Sleep deprivation is not good for anyone and you are very unlikely to be the good day time parent you want to be while you and dh are this tired.

Excellent advice by Lavenderhoney, the key is keeping calm and firm good luck.

Thank you all. Sorry I posted and ran, will come back to this later and read all the replies properly. I think DH needs to have a read of the advice too.

And Bling sadly you are correct that neither of us are good day time parents at the moment.

how about getting a small tent for the 6 year old, in their bedroom,so he has his own 'room'? perhaps if he doesn't see what's going on outside he will sleep in his own little nest? even have the tent in your room until he becomes used to it. and it will be something special just for him.