Narcissist FIL - please help

[XiaoxiongMerrilyOnHigh]

DH posted on this board about his FIL - you can read the back story here but in a tiny pistachio shell FIL exploded in a monstrous rage when DS was born this time last year - he objected to our giving DS both of our last names and sent a series of truly awful poisonous emails (eg: he told DH he was "thinking of ways to crush" him but could not because he "loved him too much"). DH got some great advice from you all then The thread ends before DH finally told FIL not to contact us again after the difficulties continued. Lovely SIL also was cut off by FIL when she supposedly took our side by continuing to see us and DS.

No contact was great as far as I was concerned, though it seemed really tragic that FIL was not seeing his first and only grandchild as a result of his own idiotic actions. But it really destroyed DH, who naturally wants to see the best in his father especially now he is a father himself, and he made the first overtures because he wanted to be the bigger person, make the first move etc. He said he also wanted to be able to say to DS when he is older that he truly made every effort to keep in touch with FIL. They are now back in contact, but of course there has been no apology or even any acknowledgement of all the shit he spewed in our direction this time last year - as far as I can tell DH wants to let sleeping dogs lie and has never brought up what happened last year.

It's all massively against my better judgement because our lives were so much better when this man was not in our lives, but I will never stand in the way of DH having a relationship with FIL - but I'm just waiting for him to hurt DH again and the cycle will repeat.

Although I can't do anything about DH I'm still very wary about DS having anything to do with him. He's now met DS once with DH which apparently went fine. However he's supposed to come round again to give DS his first birthday present and I have absolutely no intention of seeing him given he has not apologized for the monstrous things he said to DH (let alone the stuff about me!) or acknowledged that he said any of those things let alone having done anything wrong. I told DH I will just go out while he is here, but he thinks that will just perpetuate the cycle and I should just grin and bear it and talk about the weather, or more likely, ignore him and talk entirely to 1 year old DS. There's also a chance that I won't be able to resist bringing it all up and then all hell really would break loose.

This issue has come up again and again and now its a week away DH is all but begging me to be here in the house when his FIL is here. He says he wants to present a united front and needs the support and it will just cause more drama if I absent myself that morning and any booking of pedicures or going into the office to catch up on work etc will be a transparent ruse not to see FIL.

As far as I'm concerned I owe this man nothing at all and have no interest in allowing him to swan in here as if nothing ever happened and tiptoeing around what happened. I actually think that as he has cut people off left right and centre, it's the only thing he'll understand - that actually I don't want to be around him as a result of his actions. Actions have consequences.

Oh wise women with more experience of dealing with narcissism than I - what do I do?

Hmm. I can see both sides of this but I think I'm going to come down in favour of your position, OP.

Without giving too much identifying detail, my parents rejected dh without reason from the very beginning of our relationship and eventually cut me off too when I refused to leave him. After our dc were born I tried to reinstate contact and visited them many times with dh still 'banned'. Very long story short, I have come to the conclusion that I can't do it any more.

OP's dh is IMO still very much in the grip of the hold exerted by narcissistic parents which Robot also speaks of. I honestly don't believe OP should be compelled to be co-dependent in this, against her own feelings. I know that's a hard thing to say, but I do understand that hold, and I understand it very well. It has taken me over a decade to finally extricate myself. I just don't believe the dh's best interests will really be furthered by OP going along with this.

Sorry to talk about you in the third person, OP. i think you need to stick to your strongly held instinct on this. Good luck to you and dh.

I would probably want to present a united front with dh - as long as that it is what is. That means when he comes into your home, your rules apply. If he says / does something unacceptable he should be called on it, asked to apologise / explain. If he won't he should be asked to leave.

I think if your husband wants to continue a relationship with him you need to set ground rules now and stick to them - together.

Easier said than done I know. I have a very different situation with my mother and its taken me many years to realise that I don't have to put up with her behaviour. In fact it took me having children. I absolutely will not put them through what I went through. I suddenly realised I didn't have to rationalise / explain / excuse her behaviour anymore.

Agree so much with evenifyouseeapoppy - continually going along can be taken as encouraging the relationship and even enabling. When I still saw my ILs (to 'support' DH) and they were vile to me, DH's first response when I questioned their behaviour was 'it couldn't have been that bad or you wouldn't have come.'

Sometimes people with narc parents need to see how unacceptable this is to the rest of the world, without being forced to act themselves. Good luck OP. I feel so sorry for you and your DH, this is not a pleasant situation.

Unfortunately your DH's decision to resume contact with his narcissist father is one that will come back to bite him on the bum. He has certainly been well trained by his father to put his father's needs first with his own needs dead last. Your DH needs to look far more closely at his own reasons for wanting you to be there when his father arrives. Like many children of such awful (and that is an understatement) parents he is damaged and finds it difficult if not absolutely impossible to stand up at all to his father.

People too will love a crap parent no matter how abusive or rubbish they actually are; they've been conditioned to do so and on another level find it very hard to actually accept that their mother or father has completely and utterly failed them.

(You do not mention his mother in all this, is she still around?).

If your DH wants peace for himself and his family, his only option is to go no contact with his Dad but your DH is not anywhere near ready enough to do that even after his father's last outbursts. He should also consider counselling for his own self too; he could further move forward with the assistance of a good therapist. He could well remain stuck otherwise.

You personally can only encourage him to further distance himself emotionally from his father.

I have provided a link below re adult children of narcissistic parents because I think this sums up your DH very well.

www.lightshouse.org/acon-page.html#axzz2EGHocoXI

Wise words as ever attila. I hope you know how many people your insight has helped on these boards (including me).

So much to think about - thank you everyone for sharing your advice and sadly your experiences Interesting that there is still a real division of views!

Attila DH's parents are divorced and there is the bare minimum of discussion between my (wonderful) MIL and FIL to coordinate contact with the youngest teenaged child still living at home. From what I have observed she is counting down the days until youngest child is 18 and she will not have to communicate with him again.

I spoke to DH last night about why he wants me to be physically present. He said it was not so much that he wants my support as the fact that he wants to show his FIL that we are both willing to let bygones be bygones. He thinks this will "draw the poison" and show that we're the ones being the bigger people here, trying to draw the family together, turning the other cheek etc etc.

I put my side to him - self-respect, boundaries, letting a bully walk all over us. He put that straight back to me as pride and self-importance, holding a grudge and perpetuating the drama. It was not a good or productive conversation and we went to bed in silence

I'm going to send the link to him and see what he thinks. So much of it rings true, especially the perfectionist tendencies. When DH went NC he had one session with a counselor and felt a lot better, so never made another appointment - but then he still felt he needed to get back in touch with FIL. The messed up thing is FIL is actually a counsellor himself and I think he uses his professional skills to magnify and focus the damage he inflicts on everyone around him.

I had another thought. If I do stay and he might try to give me a Christmas present - I would not, could not accept a gift from him but I don't know how I could say "I can't possibly accept this" without making a scene, which is exactly what DH doesn't want to happen.

I'm very worried about DH's implication that if I absent myself, I'm holding a grudge. (He said things like "but it was a year ago...can't you just let it go?") My dear grandmother was a lifelong holder of various grudges and vendettas and although I know she personally felt that she was maintaining her integrity and self-respect this way, it did have a very negative effect on the whole family.

OP, that's what I thought your DH might say. In this case then it's not about a united front because the issues of the last have not been dealt with and it would be wrong to say you are ready to let bygones be bygones. He is of course entitled to do that, as are you if you feel it's right. But playing along (in my own sad experience I'm afraid to say) makes you complicit and it also shows FIL that even by extension you are both malleable. That's dangerous.

I'm by no means advocating going 'against' your DH. But he needs to hear that it's not acceptable and that not going is an option. That way when things might will go wrong, he can always have your example and strength to follow. I think you've done very well and whatever you decide make sure there are limits and boundaries - or I fear FIL's hold will only get tighter - it's what these people do best, sadly :(

It's not a grudge if there's no reason to believe the behaviour would change (and that doesn't just mean FIL saying so). It's a grudge if it's over a one off action or series of actions that are unlikely to be repeated. All you're doing is aski to be exempt from further nastiness. That's all. You are entitled to that (as is your DH, but that is a more difficult thing for him to learn).

OP - the thing about being the bigger person was the line I fed myself when I was visiting my parents with my dc in tow and my husband left behind and not even spoken about like some shameful secret. It gave me a boost to know myself on the moral high ground, but forgiveness and reconciliation and turning the other cheek are not modes in wbhich narcissistic people like this operate, or languages they can understand. The long-term emotional cost to him will be too high, and he is effectively asking you to bear part of that cost for him. You have the right and some might say the obligation to refuse to bear that cost.

That FIL is a counsellor is horrifying. I expect that some of this stuff about letting bygones be bygones and 'moving on' has been fed to dh by FIL as the 'healthy', 'emotionally mature' (or whatever) thing to do.

It is possible for your dh to free himself of this. It is an extremely laborious and a painful process and, I believe, barely possible without therapy, which will be an issue in itself for your dh

Can you get him Toxic Parents (by Susan Forward, IIRC) for Christmas?

I agree that your husband is being manipulative. He wants to present a united front that you are both willing to let bygones be bygones, yet YOU are not willing and why should you be? You don't have to take on your husband's feelings about his father just because he is your husband. You have a right to look after your own emotional well being and to set perfectly reasonable boundaries around the people you are, and are not, willing to have in your life. It's very hard to do this within families and your husband is clearly not ready to begin that process, but you must still look after yourself (and your son).

I think Corygals post of 22.29pm is pretty much good.
Your DH seems determined to see your fil come what may. He will need you.

Unfortunatley though, your DH seems to think and hope that relationships between your fil and everyone else have the potential to improve. I dont know how long his hopes will last on that front.

I guess I can draft DH an email explaining why I am not ready to let bygones be bygones and sending him Attila's link, or at least some relevant extracts.

Maybe we can have a more productive discussion by email because in person I just see the hurt on his face

Do you think you will be able to forgive your fil?
To see him as an ill person.
You may never know if he is capable of totally controlling himself.

I dont mean that even if you were able to forgive him, that that should mean you are still not extremely wary of your fil.

What both amillionyears and EvenIfYouSeeAPoppy wrote earlier.

Not a bit surprised to read that your FIL has an ex wife. Some manipulative people like your FIL do become counsellors as well and create damage that way too (he's the second one I know of who does such work).

re your comment:-
"I spoke to DH last night about why he wants me to be physically present. He said it was not so much that he wants my support as the fact that he wants to show his FIL that we are both willing to let bygones be bygones. He thinks this will "draw the poison" and show that we're the ones being the bigger people here, trying to draw the family together, turning the other cheek etc etc".

He's been certainly well trained by his father hasn't he?.

Unfortunately your DH does not or cannot even begin to comprehend that the above approach would only work if the other side i.e his dad could be at all reasoned with. As his Dad is a narcissist this is a complete impossibility.

I just wonder what it will take for your DH to actually see what is happening in front of him. It is also somewhat manipulative on your H's to assume that you also want bygones to be bygones; he cannot own your feelings like this. Like many people who have abusive parents as parents, he may still think that if he acts "nicer" towards his dad he (FIL) will somehow give him the approval and love that he craves. That will never happen by the way; it will truly be a painful realisation for your DH when that reality dawns. And it may not.

(BTW narcs are really crap gift givers and I doubt very much that if you did receive a present it would be anything that you would actually find at all useful. Any gifts if given should be put into the charity shop).

One generation i.e your H has been profoundly affected, do not let your child suffer the same fate.

Also would second what TheProvincialLady wrote too.

Perhaps you need to explain to your DH that while he can just forgive your FIL without needing an apology and is happy to let his father treat him like shit, you're not. I would be there, but say you will make no effort to show you believe bygones to be bygones, if he says anything to you, you will tell him you are still waiting for an apology and you have a very low opinion of him. There is no reason for you to suck up to his man. there is no reason for you to be the 'bigger person', there is no reason for you do this just because your DH wants to and your FIL wants to pretend he didn't behave badly.

Ask your DH why he thinks your FIL doesn't need to apologise to you. Ask him why he thinks that it's ok for you all to pretend it didn't happen so that FIL doesn't have to face up to his unacceptable behaviour. Ask your DH how many more times will he let his father treat him, you and your DS like shit because it's easier for your DH than to make your DH actually call his father on his bad behaviour.

Basically, your DH thinks his life being easier is all that matters, even if that means his wife and child have to be treated badly by his father in order to make that happen. Why should you put up with it?

But yes, be there, make it clear you will speak your mind to your FIL, it sounds like someone should.

*He said it was not so much that he wants my support as the fact that he wants to show his FIL that we are both willing to let bygones be bygones. He thinks this will "draw the poison" and show that we're the ones being the bigger people here, trying to draw the family together, turning the other cheek etc etc.

I put my side to him - self-respect, boundaries, letting a bully walk all over us. He put that straight back to me as pride and self-importance, holding a grudge and perpetuating the drama*

Oh dear. In his own eyes, FIL is always the bigger, more important, moral person though surely, because he's a narcissist. A show of good values to a narcissist will have about as much effect as farting into a hurricane, I should imagine. It really isn't self-importance to have some minimum standards regarding how others should treat you. I don't see a bit of pride as a negative either, if it rescues one from doormat status. That your DH is thinking like this serves to demonstrate how far he is from being free or gaining perspective.

I think that in reality, your DH wants you to be quiet and compliant. That leaves FIL free to act as he likes without any boundaries being put in place. If FIL behaves abominably during the visits and you object, it seems probable your DH probably won't back you up. So please don't be present. It puts you in an impossible position and FIL can enjoy playing you against each other, driving a wedge between you or any other mischief he decides to inflict on you.

Ok I've drafted an email to DH. It's long but I've taken many of all of your comments on board.

Subject: Some Thoughts

I'm sure your heart sank as you read that subject line, but I just wanted to set out clearly what I'm thinking as I find it so hard to put how I'm feeling into words when I know you're feeling wounded. Please remember that it is your father that is hurting you and continues to hurt you as the weeks go by with no apology, no acknowledgement of what happened and no change in his attitude or behaviour. So although it may be very difficult and upsetting to read this email please don't attack me or my feelings as the source of that hurt, but place it squarely where it belongs - on his shoulders.

You are your father's son and you want to love him, to be the bigger person and to give him the example of the father he should be by showing him the father you have become. You are already a better father to DS than he is to you and I love you for it. If you don't believe me just imagine if you could do or say any of what he did and said to DS - of course you couldn't. And in the unlikely event that you ever did say something as a one-off in the heat of the moment, you would apologize and do everything you needed to do to make it right.

Although you feel you are able to have an arm's length relationship with your father without expecting an apology or acknowledgement of all the things he said and did last year, I don't feel the same way. I don't want to be around him if it involves pretending nothing ever happened and nothing changes.

I will support you to the hilt with what you choose to do with respect to your relationship to your father. You already know I have grave misgivings about any contact at all because I want to protect you and DS from future hurt. As far as I'm concerned we've already tried the "let sleeping dogs lie" approach and it failed - remember we met with him and [his wife] last year after all those toxic emails were sent, and somehow we both managed to pretend nothing ever happened. Two weeks later he threw it all back in your face and hurt you all over again. Telling him not to contact you was so hard but I am so proud of you for saying it - I thought at the time and still think it was incredibly brave and is the only healthy solution.

I wish you would consider going back to the counselor and talking about why you feel like you have to allow him to treat you like this with no consequences. You're the best man I know and worth so much more than this. No one should be able to treat you the way your father has and get away with it - he is taking advantage of your kindness, your generosity of spirit, your greatness of heart and your attempt to demonstrate to him how a father should act towards his son. I also wonder if the perfectionism stuff we were talking about a few weeks ago has its roots here - the self-criticism, the continuously impressive over-achievement, the high standards you set for yourself. Some (not all, obviously) of the stuff here resonated a lot with me: www.lightshouse.org/acon-page.html#axzz2EGHocoXI

Having read this email, please let me know if you still want me to be there next Friday when he comes. So much love.xxx

Good luck xiao, I hope you guys can come to an amicable decision about how to handle this very difficult situation. No easy solutions I'm afraid, but stay constant about how your priority is what's best for your dS and be clear to DH that it's him you married, and that having your own opinions is allowed, even while you support him during this.
(FWIW I'd go quiet on the he'll-bite-you-in-the-bum bit: yes, he provably will, but pointing that out is not going to make DH feel any better. Just be calm and supportive when it happens and don't say y

...don't say you told him so!)

Yes good point - I can see how that might not go down too well.

I am even angrier at my FIL for even making it necessary for me to draft this email.

amillionyears I never responded to your point earlier. I think I could forgive but I'm not sure I could reconcile, if that makes sense, unless something changed. I would like to think I could forgive my FIL unilaterally without his apology, but it would take a lot of work. And if I'm truly honest I don't think I could reconcile or have any restoration of our relationship without an apology.

Xiao I have nothing constructive to add about your situation (I'm incredibly lucky to have no experience in this area whatsoever), but that email is beautiful. I know it will upset you DH to read it, but I hope he is able to grasp the wonderful things you say about HIM and hold on to them.

Thanks thekat. He is a pretty wonderful human being which is why this situation kills me. He deserves so much better.