Narc. Daughters/Mums. What to do? Long Rant.

[Stinkypoos]

I've talked to lots of family members about my toxic mum.
I don't think she's quite as toxic as some but she has and still can, cause a lot of harm.

I've heard lots about what she was like growing up. She nearly died as a child and therefore was spoiled. A relatives motherless baby needed care and came to stay and my mum resented it and kicked up a fuss so the baby had to go. Mum was the only baby of the family! The baby only stayed a while but my mum hates her violently to this day.

My Nan wanted my mum to help with housework and my mum used to have temper tantrums and give herself asthma attacks? (she still has these tantrums).

Mum says Nan was hard on her when she was growing up. My mum did her homework, wore nice clothes, had ballet lessons, forced to go to school even if she was pretending/actually? sick. Forced to do housework when her brothers didn't have to.

There is a lot of resentment about other people having it easy, jealousy, and bitterness. She is very negative. My mum didn't have female friends as a child, she seems to hate women. We are all bit*s! My mum is very unhappy.

My mum will tell me her version of events when someone has supposedly been horrible to her and you can often tell why they've reacted this way from what she says. She doesn't see that the person hasn't behaved appallingly just mildly inconvienced her.

My mum honestly doesn't seem to realize what she is doing wrong and she gets very defensive when you try to tell her. She doesn't like criticism. I don't believe she will change.

Mum talks about me as being very hard - I don't feel I am but my sister admires how I am. I had lots of counselling - I didn't recognise how bad mum's behaviour was until I made my counseller cry. I thought my counseller was being weak and over-emotional. I went through two more counsellers, the last was a really abrupt, quite stroppy german one - she helped me stop internalising my anger and recognise what my feelings were.

When I had my own children I realised again what a crap childhood I had.

I am very firm with my mum and will only put up with so much crap; she knows I will call her up on it so generally behaves with me. I make a joke over her bad behavour/the Diva complex!, we all laugh about it at the time or afterwards. She can get a bit sulky. My sister can't do this - she didn't have much counselling but I wish she would have some more. I would say my mum was worse to me as a child.

My brother has the same'I have to be the centre of attention' thing but personality disorder has been mentioned. I treat him the same way. I call him up on his false reality and tell him to speak the truth or not bother telling me lies. He changes the truth everyday. I feel very unkind doing this but he is more honest to me than anyone else.

I worry that genetics has a part. I try to identify peoples feelings to my children, if you do this - how do you think it makes people feel, that kind of thing. It seems my mum and brother feel insecure/low self esteem so I try to make my children know they are loved and give them a secure home.

I do love my Mum and my brother. I wish others would back me up more. It seems a lot of the relatives make excuses for their behaviour. It always seems like they want to brush over the bad behaviour or quickly change the subject or some other distraction. I think you need to let them know if they have said or done anything wrong. It is like everyone knows but when I point it out my mum acts all hurt and upset and I'm in the wrong. I'm the one causing the problem?

A favourite phrase on this board is 'the only person you can change is yourself'. Rather than expecting others to follow your lead and mirror your approach, you need to find the confidence and humility to accept that they may find it easier to cope with the same problem in a different way. If they want to brush over the behaviour and you don't then that is their and your perogative. Mum may think you're the bad-guy as a result but that is her problem and not theirs. The exception would be your partner. Always preferable if couples take the same line.

Sounds like you're doing it all exactly right, OP.

What exactly are you wondering if you should be doing differently?

Maybe decide if and how you want to deal with the family members who are enabling your mother and brother's behaviour (that seems to be troubling you?). I think the key there is to realise that you can only change your own behaviour (which you have done, admirably) and accept that they will carry on with their own heads in the sand.

You sound like you are handling your mother and brother remarkably well, and setting real positive examples for your own children. So bravo.

Thanks for replying.

I think as it's near to the family Christmas party with all the relatives I'm mulling over the past a bit. My partner has really helped in dealing with everything but he even sometimes thinks I should let bad behaviour go and not make an issue of it and spoil things (so mum spoiling things for me doesn't matter!). It's the 'anything for a quiet life' attitude that gets me.

I feel I am alone in this. It seems really important to me that our relatives stop enabling my mum.
I'd just like them to say 'yes, your mum has just been really mean- stinky-poos - you are not imagining it/being oversensitive'.

I don't want to be the one and only 'super-hard-girl or bad-girl'.
I feel if we all pulled together we could make a difference!

I accept I can't change my mum but am still trying to change my relatives! I hadn't recognised that. I think I want them to validate that how I'm acting is the correct way as I don't feel completely comfortable with what I'm doing.

I still feel guilty, mean and like a naughty child causing a scene yet I know I'm not.

It's really helped putting this into words - It's given me insight into what I actually feel and why I want back up.

I spend so much mental energy trying to work out why my family are so messed up.

I think it's the counselling that lets me see exactly how things are and examine and analyse events to work out what's gone on.

I don't think others see things as clearly sometimes.

Or...Perhaps learning to ignore my mum's bad behaviour is actually easier mentally.

Your mum HAS been harsh and damaging to you, stinkypoos. You are not imagining it or being over-sensitive.

It's the same kind of thought process with parenting... We all like to think that we've cracked it when it comes to child-rearing and if we have to spend too long around people who have a very different approach to ours (especially if their DCs are horribly behaved) then it's very frustrating. "Why don't they do it my way?" we wonder... "They'd have much nicer kids". :)

I think for your mother, same as with badly behaved people at the other end of the age range, it's going to be a case of picking your battles. Work out what is important enough to be picked up on and what can be safely let go by the by.

HotDAMNlifeisgood & CogitOCrapNotMoreSprouts

Thanks for your comments, they are insightful.

'Your mum HAS been harsh and damaging to you, stinkypoos. You are not imagining it or being over-sensitive.'
I know it in my head yet I find it hard to accept in my heart.

It feels very much as if almost everyone else minimalises the bad behaviour so I feel as if I'm making too much of it.

It is so good to have a sister who was there with me and we have always given each other mutual support. She has kept me strong.

I think it can be easy to not pick up on all the nastiness if it's not aimed specifically and directly at you.

My mum is very unhappy and she is always telling me this.

When I tell her off it feels like I am kicking her when she's down. I just don't understand why she has to be this way. She just seems to be getting more and more miserable.

I may try to pick my battles with more care this Christmas! I don't want to make my mum unhappy.

You can call her on it when it is directly affecting you but generally it's not your job to be the police iyswim. If she is generally behaving badly and people are letting her get away with it, you don't have to stand up and make a kind of announcement.

I really do appreciate where you're coming from but you're on a hiding to nothing if you are trying to force your family to see what you see. For a start, you've had a lot of therapy, and even then it took a while to get through to you how awful she is, you can't expect them to get the revelation just like that. Particularly, as you say, as it doesn't affect them in the same way as it has you. If you're on the end of it, you see it clearly. If you're not, you don't notice, particularly. People may know she's difficult but don't fully appreciate what that means. It's easier to let it ride - people think it's more loving and caring. ime people will not stand up for what is right. They'd rather die first.

As for her childhood, imo it is impossible to really know what went on. I come from a toxic family and I can't even say what my twin sister experienced - the poison affects everybody differently. I would say that your job is to set your boundaries and keep to them but it's not your job to generally force everyone to comply with setting boundaries for her. You have to accept her as she is and make the choice whether you can tolerate a relationship with her.

That's good advice hopespringy.

It is the therapy that has helped me more easily identify what's going on. I forget how I used to be.

I have been policing her behavior - mainly over comments about my mothering skills or criticism of my choices - I try to keep it friendly and jokey but it can be a bit sharp.

I am going to try the distraction technique more. I love my mum and I want her in my life. She can be a pain but we do have good times together, it is not all bad. I know she loves me too - just in that slightly toxic way!

You are doing so well!

I think it can feel v lonely when you have a mad mother and people around you colluding with their awful behaviour. I'm glad you have your sister to compare notes with.

I can relate to a lot of what you say. My worry is that I will inadvertantly mess up my own kids. I don't think I am as much of a whackjob as my mum but so hard to get it right when your parenting role model was so nuts.

I could have written your post Stinky. I also have a toxic mother, a supportive sister and a bonkers brother who lies continuously
My Mum actually lives with me though. It's mentally exhausting. As someone else said I pick my battles; I do pull her up occasionally, but most of the time we let it slide - just not worth it. Even my kids are wise to it now.
If she says something really hurtful I bite my lip and repeat 'she a nutter, but she's an old lady' (or similar!) quietly to myself and walk away.
Another thing that gets me is that my family tell me she used to be really happy (before having me ), so in my memory she has always been unhappy - I tell her that her unhappiness is not my fault and only she can fix that.
I think you are doing it all right - you have to be very matter of fact and straight down the line. I avoid conversations about the past, actually I avoid all conversations with her!
Don't worry about your family, they haven't had the counselling and are unlikely to understand her toxic, mind bending personality to the extent you do - they've probably never really thought about it and as this something you have put a great deal of energy into there is just a mismatch. I am sure they realise she's hard work? Try and rise above it and not 'bad mouth' her to anyone (because that's exactly what she probably does!!).
Stay strong.

Imaginethat:
I think because we've had such a crappy childhood we have more insight in all the things our families did that hurt and humiliated us and can actively exclude those things from our childrens life. Putting in all the good things we missed out on may be more of a challenge.

Even though my mother makes her critical remarks, I am a good mother with lovely, happy, polite, caring children. I get told that I am a good mother all the time (but I do have a bit of self-doubt that it must be good genes and not anything we are doing as parents).

My mum does try to take some of the credit for them as well which is totally without any basis. I find this amusing in a sad way.

I let my children have plenty of social time spent with decent friends, family (mostly on my partners side) and lots of activities and quality time. I think having lots of different close relations with safe adults (all with a few flaws) evens out my flaws. If it was just me and hubbie and the kids may cultivate some of our less desirable personality traits.

Parenting is hard but it is important to realise although we are not perfect we can learn from our mistakes. My mother has always failed to do this.

ConorsRockers:
I could never have my mum staying permanently. I would not cope. The most I can manage is 2 or 3 days. I think you must be very strong to cope with that. The thought of it horrifies me.

My mum and the rest of the family have said she was much happier before she had the kids or before the traumatic birth of my sister, or that 3 kids was just too much for her. I never believed it and think everyone is just making the same old excuses for her behavior.

I have talked to my mum, she had this great career which she gave up to have kids but when you find out a bit more you realise she had huge problems with her bosses, with her co-workers and with the customers. She got moved around quite a bit and then left to do a more generalised job before getting married.

I've asked family and mum about her life at University and school before that and it's all pretty much the same. There were always underlying problems and difficulties and I don't see the happy person I'm led to believe she was. The same people telling me this are those who are saying she was happy before and is just sad about her career ending, giving it up for the family.

My mother goes on about what makes her unhappy but won't make the effort to sort it out herself. She expects us to do that for her. She quite bluntly told us she expects us to do it for her. We told her she needs to do it herself and that it was very unreasonable to try to get us to sort out her life. It was a totally surreal conversation. You would not believe all the things she refuses to take responsibility for.

The amount of energy we spend is mentally exhausting and I don't want to waste it anymore. I've got more important things to deal with.

I try not to bad-mouth her but it is hard. my sister and I used to have major bit**in' seessions which weren't constructive but helped us release our feelings. After we had counselling the sessions got more constructive about how we could deal with her.

I have overheard and been told of many occasions when mum has tore us to shreds to our relatives and her few friends (not even people she is that close to). It hurts and we worry what people will believe. She tries to break up our sister friendship to and we have to make sure we are strongly united together against this.