"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Too true, Hissletoe, anyone else treating us like this would have been reported years ago, and I feel partly to blame for letting it carry on so long.
The event on Sat. is a public one I am organising, so I need a strategy just in case. If they do show their sucked-lemon faces, I willl have to treat them like anyoe else, but at the end I will tell them simply to go home. Arghhh.

Sorry, x-posted

Creepy, find a way to memorise a phrase:

"I'm not prepared to discuss this. I've made up my mind, just leave"

Repeat over and over, as often as you need to.

All anyone has to do to support/back you up is to repeat 'creepy's said all she's going to say, please respect Her wishes'

You'll also need a back up plan if they were to refuse to leave and you and your H still need to maintain a united front. Hopefully they will not turn up anyway.

BTW I only wrote this:-

"Your experience was that bad, your parents utterly failed you" as a direct response to Midwife writing in her post, "They weren't that bad were they?!". My reply along with my previous one need to be read together.

Thanks for your support. I tried psychotherapy a few yrs back to seemif it helped my migraines and he went over my whole childhood. It didn't help migraines but really helped to validate my experiences etc. he was very good but visibly shocked at times and one day said 'with a childhood like that you were bound to get something!'

My migraines are hormonal but you are right the stress and the blame DM puts upon me for 'not doing enough to stop them' really does not help.

Atilla, you're always awesome, I love your work, please never thin I'd critisise you eh?

Just wanted Midwife to see how she'd not got it wrong at all, and that there's so much she's entitled to feel

No worries Hisstletoe, its okay:). The sentiments that Midwife has expressed are ones that I have seen quite often before now, people do downplay the
abuses they have and continue to suffer at the hands of such dysfunctional
people. I do think however, that having read my second post back again I should have added the phrase and that's a complete understatement" following "your parents utterly failed you".

I was just thinking to myself the other day that neither Mr M or I have spoken to FIL since this past summer (not that he says much anyway). No loss there I can assure you. My poor DH, I feel so sorry for him having such dysfunctional parents. He does not always see how awful they have been. My lot aren't much better, disinterested is a good word to use re them. They have all taught me abject lessons in how not to behave.

It's the same as sufferers of DV, and most of us are stately homers anyway since we are taught that we are so ffing worthless, we end up with someone that carries on the narrative...

Abuse is abuse, it's unacceptable, and whoever dishes it out needs to be left/dumped as soon as possible. There is no such thing a blood being thicker than water... it just takes longer to clear up....

This is where black and white thinking comes into it's own. Its Abuse, it's unacceptable, therefore I END this relationship.

SisDear's sent DS a gift. Posty knocked this morning while I was in the shower. DS took the parcel, addressed to him.

It has her return address on it, the first time I've been given it and that's since the spring.

I don't want to have to thank her, I don't want her having contact with anyone decent around me, I don't want her in my life.

I've got it in a bag in the car. I intend to take it back to our post office when I'm back home later.

I have to give it back, don't i?

Freecycle/charity shop it/donate to Sally Army Xmas appeal. Don't waste the return postage. (Easier said than done, but as an outsider, that is what springs to mind)

Thanks also for all your support, people - it did help me get things straight in my head, and I told my colleagues what the line was. They didn't come and the event was a huge success. I was scanning the queue as everyone was coming in, mind!

My DS will be 13 next week. Last night he said to me 'mum, i feel a bit guilty because you spoil me a bit too much for birthdays and Xmases'
This took me aback for a minute. It was a good time to explain that Mum loves spoiling him at special times as that didn't happen in my childhood. In fact, my DM went away for 4 nights around my 13 th birthday and I was left home alone to deal with it. I was able to tell him that I'd always sworn since a kid that my kids lives would be better and that it gives me a lot of joy to see him having great birthdays and xmases. He was very grown up about discussing it as its not something I dwell on with him
The day he was born was the most important day of my life. How could a mother forget that?

Thanks Creepy. took it to the post office and posted it back. it was only a couple of quid. Had I answered the door, I could have refused it for nothing.

I'll not be taken unaware again.

KIwi, i don't think your mum forgot your birthday, any more than my Ex forgot DS's 5th, the last one he knew he'd be in the same country for. He buggered off the night before, to spend time with no-mark mates, and came bak after 11pm on the actual day, no call, nothing. I was LIVID with him. This was a month before he was due to leave for good, and he HAD to pout and spoil his DS birthday.

They HATE the idea that a day is NOT all about them.

I shut my family out of my birthday this year, it was FREAKISH how put out they were, they were not sad, they were angry at not being a part of a good day.

As I have said before, if you are not there for me at the sad times, then you are not having access to me for the good times.

Garbage IN - Garbage OUT. What you reap you sow....

I'd probably send it back Hissy. But I do not know your back story.

Cross posted with you. I've been putting the children to bed and hadn't refreshed the page.

Been a hard day with the DCs, I feel like I've told them off all afternoon and now I despise myself for it. As a divorced mum and due to my background with my parents, I strive to be this perfect parent but I feel like I fail so often. Does that make sense?

Telling them off is setting boundaries, its a good thing.

Today may be better!

I am a few years down the road on this. 11 years ago I came to my senses about my mother. i started a thread called 'am I the only one with a miserable mother'. The response was huge.

Since then I have had counselling, stepped right back from my Mother and taken two lots of anti depressants (am back on them now).

In my experience my Mother will not any responsibility for her actions or failings. Just says I got it wrong. One I will never forget after my miscarriage she told my brother that I had made a mistake and I wasnt pregnant after all. My brother told me this and when I approached her to ask why she said it, she denied saying it to him.

There is NC and there is limited contact. Personally I would advise you not to make the decision that they cant give gifts or see grandchildren (unless there has been abuse, they fill their heads with nonsense etc).

In my experience both my parents treated my children with kid gloves. This is because DH is involved and wouldnt stand for nonsense from either of them. He was the strong one. My kids are now teens, my Dad is dead, Mum is in her 80's but still toxic.

"We are taught that we are so fucking worthless that we find someone who continues the narrative"

That's probably one of the most powerful things I've read in a long time.

Oh well here goes.
Hi there I am thinking of how best to move forward with this so would welcome some thoughts on it.
My mum split with my dad before I can remember and was pg with my db. We all loved together for years and I think had a fairly normal childhood apart from being poor and my dad hardly seeing us. Mum was very bitter and never really spoke about our dad.
When I was about 12 she remarried a very nice but extremely passive man who was nice to us but made no attempt to actually parent us.
They had a baby boy who was stillborn. My brother and I were very upset but nobody ever spoke to us about it I just remember seeing mum sore and upset.
They went on to have my two sisters who I adored and spent loads of time with and love dearly but felt as though from their arrival I was completely eft to my own devices. I pushed boundaries but was pretty much ignored and given no help planning a future.
I became pg at 16 from an older not very nice man but was pretty much told I ended to leave ASAP which I did.
He was very violent some of which mum knew about but she never helped me and eventually I left at 19 with2 ds having suffered multiple injury s.
I've moved on since then. I trained to be a nurse then a sw and have been married twice with 5 dc.
My ex cheated on me after 18yrs and mum was slightly supportive but soon wouldn't hear a word against him and even gave him money for Xmas 3 months after he'd left me for ow. She gave him 40 pounds,I had a jewellery box.
She saw my violent ex once and chatted to him telling me what a nice bloke he is and that he'd offered to donate a kidney to ds who needed one. I pointed out that had he not beaten the hell out of me whilst pg with ds he wouldn't actually need a kidney. Mum told me I was making that up and it hadn't happened.
Over the years I have always accepted that my sisters get a lot more than I do because they were little but now they are 30 and 31 and still opens get lots more than I do as do their partners. Mum tells me what she's got them in their elaborate stockings and they get a large gift eg camera or I pod and other things. I get a small gift.
When I was a lone parent I spent Xmas alone as "we just like it quiet" but now the girls are adults they all get together for Xmas and never ask me.
When I got remarried 4 years ago on Xmas eve mum and step dad popped in for the ceremony but couldn't stay for the meal as "we are too busy with Xmas" I later found out from my sisters that it was my step dad who didn't want to come and mum said "I have to keep the peace"
Last Xmas it was suggested we do a secret Santa as we all have dc so a lot to buy for. This seemed a good idea until I realised that mum still lavished gifts on the girls during their Xmas together but I got nothing from her as was included in the secret Santa
I went Xmas shopping Friday with sister and mum and she blatantly bought sis one if her Xmas presents in front if me. I later said I didn't want to do secret Santa anymore.
I really could go on but I won't apart from to say that she is great at times, helps out with kids and buys them stuff.
I did once tell my sister how I felt but she dismissed it as we are all grown up now and mum is good to you.
They are all planning a holiday now to celebrate my sisters 30th. Openly discuss it in front if me but I'm not asked to go.
Sorry it's so long but if really love to hear what others make of this.
Dh says its just that she sees them as children still but still hurtful for me.

I haven't been around for a while because I just moved house and have had little contact with my parents since thankfully. They did come round today, but are staying with one of their friends who live in the area instead of us. I can't tell you how relieved I am!

Anyway it looks like they are still going to move up to our end of the country but not 2 doors down as initially suggested. More like 5/6 miles away. It appears Dad is trying to exert authority and push for a place further out. He said he thinks it would be a bad idea to move so close 'because we all need our space'. I am hoping it is because he has seen me trying to he more assertive. Trouble is I think Mum see's it as me throwing my toys out of the pram because she made a comment about me having tantrums 2 days ago. I did let that one slide, but did tell her I had to go at that point and we 'd only been talking 3 minutes.

The more time I spend away from her, and not speaking to her the stronger I feel. Sometimes I wonder if NC would be the way to go but I think I would find it harder than this.

Ledkr, that is sad to read. I cant offer any advice either, not a situation I have been it but it sure is a hurtful one. All I can suggest is that perhaps you assert yourself more ie "lovely, 'Sue' has a nice gift, I have seen 'some earrings' that I would love for Christmas, let me show them to you. Maybe they dont realise the harm they are inflicting.

I think you need to communicate with them. Ask point blank why you are not invited to join in for Christmas. Dont ask questions where they can answer yes or no and why are you not invited to the 30th birthday as you would love to be included.

ledkr, that's awful. You are isolated in your own family. My mum won't acknowledge may abuse either, keeps talking about a friend of hers that was abused. Not me, oh no.

I'm not to be supported emotionally in anything, thje harder it hurts, the further they run.

All we can do is refuse to be where they want us to be. To refuse to hold the job title they force upon us. To be ourselves. No matter what.

So sorry Ledkr. Perhaps with help you can start to distance yourself from this.

I feel better since posting so goodness knows how I'd feel with a bit of counselling. It just helps to know I'm not over reacting. Me and dh have chatted loads too it helps to put it into perspective.

Hi Ledkr, we all know on this thread that you are not overreacting. Your family operates a sytem so that you are unfairly at the bottom of the ladder. And they will keep stepping on your fingers until you find another ladder to climb up and say I am strong and can climb myself. And that is because that gives them a boost to their ego.

Dont try to change them. Change yourself. The best advice I got on this thread was when someone said they finally realised that the change had to come from within themselves, to make themselves a more positive and happy person, rather than puzzling and fretting over why others behave the way they do. This is building your own self esteem as your parents never did that for you.

This is also difficult to do as we are all brought up to think that a family member wouldnt behave badly to us and we are sad and puzzled when they do and want to try and make it right. dont make them right, make yourself right.