"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: //webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

<br />
Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.<br />
<br />
This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a><br />
<br />
So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.<br />
<br />
One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;<br />
<br />
'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'<br />
<br />
Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. <br />
<br />
Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.<br />
<br />
NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. <br />
<br />
You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a><br />
<br />
I started with this book and found it really useful.<br />
<br />
Here are some excerpts:<br />
<br />
"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.<br />
<br />
Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.<br />
<br />
Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:<br />
<br />
"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".<br />
<br />
"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".<br />
<br />
"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."<br />
<br />
"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"<br />
<br />
"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....<br />
<br />
"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.<br />
<br />
YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."<br />
<br />
Helpful Websites<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a><br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a><br />
<br />
Follow up to pages first thread:<br />
<br />
I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.<br />
<br />
Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)<br />
<br />
I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.<br />
<br />
More helpful links:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a><br />
<br />
Some books:<br />
<br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Homecoming</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a><br />
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

[ledkr]

Thanks bay. It's weird cos my nan behaved the same way to mum ie favoured her younger more successful dd and mum knew it, we used to discuss it. She is repeating patterns.
I have broken them as I too have older and younger dc and my adult ds's are treated the same as baby dds and I'd do anything for all of them.
Dh's theory is that's and sees my sisters as her children still whereas I'm her adult daughter.
Honestly she is soooo proud of them which is great but I'm no less deserving of praise. I do a difficult job which I'm really good at and have coped with some terrible stuff.
I'm actually amazed I'm as sane as I am

[Badvocsanta]

Hello.
Been directed here by Attila who posted on a thread is started a few days ago.
Not sure what to say really.
I am sure my childhood was not that bad really, not compared to some of you, but as I get older (I turned 40 this year) and have had children of my own I find it harder and harder to reconcile my feelings of sadness and anger wrt my childhood.
Part of me feels that the past is the past and that it's pointless to keep harking back to a time when I was so unhappy, but another part of me knows that those experiences made me who I am today, for good or ill.
My mother is of Irish catholic extraction and I am the eldest of 3 siblings.
I was used from the age of 10 as a skivvy and sent out to work from the age of 13 in various Pt jobs like babysitting, cleaning etc.
my siblings were not treated this way, in fact quite the opposite.
I nursed my mother through 2 nervous breakdowns before I was 20.
She asked me to take out cc in my name which i did and left me ££££ in debt which took me years to pay off.
It is only now as she is starting to favour my siblings children over my own that I feel I have to do something about it.
I can't change what she did to me, but I can prevent her making my dc feel unloved and useless.
I have already pulled away from her quite a bit and have cut contact to my terms.
She phones and I am polite. It's mostly about how ill she feels that day/week.
But I have done this before...I always end up getting sucked back in.
It enough is enough.
I am not a scared young girl anymore.
If any of you have successfully kept up a au official relationship with your parent/s can I ask how? Is it even possible?
Thanks if you got this far..

[Badvocsanta]

That should have read superficial relationship, sorry!

[kiwigirl42]

Really feel for you Ledkr and Badvocsanta. I think Xmas makes things feel more raw as well.

[Badvocsanta]

I just feel really sad.
I was never really a part of the family. Not really. And I dont know why.
When I was saving up to get married and nit working after being made redundant my brother (rarely worked even though he is now in his mid 30s) took my bank card and withdrew over £400 over 3 days.
Fund out when the bank statement arrived.
And you know the worst bit?
After a minute of being stunned and shocked.
I knew I just knew
:(
Cue my parents blaming me.
Yes.
I called The police as it wasn't actually my money, was mine and my now Dhs.
They cautioned him, no charges obv.
And my entire family turned against me.
Because what I did in calling the police was wrong.
So, I finally left home 5 months before my marriage. Moved in with pils. Very very stressful lead up to my wedding.
Never had an apology, will never get one.
My sister spent all of her teenage years telling me she wished I was dead. Every day, at east twice.
I think, for my own sanity, I need to pull away from these people.
But how?
Pretty are coming for Xmas lunch. That's ok, they will come, eat and leave.
But they are supposed to be joining us for hols next year (I know, I know) how the hell do I get out of that without causing major trauma!?
:(

[ledkr]

badvoc hi, I'm new to this too but have felt better for opening up and also noticing it more as ice got older.
I'm the eldest too and had my baby sisters all the time whilst mum worked and my step dad wafted around as if they were nothing to do with him. But in my mums world you must put up and shut up to keep your man.
Which is why I get no sympathy for my break ups I think. My mum probably thinks I deserve it cos don't take care of my man!
Anyway it hurts that my sisters go along with it all but they have never known any different I guess.
I'm going to wait to see what Xmas brings and then ask my sisters if they think this is ok to buy loads for them and nothing for me.
I'm guessing they will have an answer but really how can they?
She even buys stuff for their partners and nothing for mine which is embarrassing when his parents are so generous to me.
The answer will be that they get together at Xmas so have to buy gifts.
I will say well shouldn't that be more reason to get us a gift.

[Badvocsanta]

Hi ledkr
Yes it does hurt, no matter how much I try and pretend it doesn't.
I never know what to say to my pils at Xmas when they ask what my parents have given me...so embarrassed.
One year it was an apron with a Swear word on it....sigh. No idea why. Probably saw it on sale and thought "that will do for badvoc".
Luckily for me my dc don't realise how more favoured the other gc are as they spend so much time with my pils :)
I guess my parents would say i was the problem because I wouldn't put up with it! I wouldn't accept it. My mother was horrified that I stayed on for a levels...what's the point? Why bother? She wanted me out and earning I suppose :(
She buys my brother cigarettes and gives him money regularly (he is 36 this month) and he has never held down a job for more than 9 months since he was 16.
But it's never his fault. Oh no. It's the bosses, the weather, the money, the shifts...never the fact he is a lazy entitled pig.
My sister is married to an awful man but he is rich so it's ok. It's ok he never spends time with my nephews (who are lovely) and treats her like dirt. She gets anew car every few months but he is a hateful person and she is to all intents and purposes a single parent.
But he is rich so it's ok.
Sigh.

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

They are wrong about us.

They are wrong in general.

We don't need to be with people who hold us in such contempt.

End of the year, end of bad habits.

New Year : New beginnings for us all.

We ARE worth it.

[ledkr]

Today I had a childcare emergency and mum dropped everything to help. Confuses me that

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

Doesn't confuse me. I have all the childcare I could possibly need, mum's a saint in that regard... *

Our DC are not low down the pecking order, just us and anyone stupid enough to be with us... It's the contrast that rams it home how shit WE must be. Can you see that. Everyone's important, except US.

*but am aware that this may be chucked at me at some point. Am ready and waiting.

[NotQuitePerfect]

Badvocsanta I felt so sad reading your post at 07.58.

What a toxic, horrible family. I know how hard it is to resolve these kinds of issues. I still haven't managed it, and I'm in my 50s now! I 'divorced' my father a decade ago, having finally realised (tho not fully come to terms with) the fact that he feels nothing for me. Throughout my childhood he constantly told me how much I was hated by my brother and sisters. No violence or neglect, just an absence of the normal paternal emotions. I left home at 16 to live with a much older man (neither of my parents raised any objection), we were together nearly ten years but when the marriage broke down my parents could not have been less interested.
Since cutting all contact with my father, I have felt better. Not good, you understand, but better. I hope you find the strength to do the same.

[Badvocsanta]

Thank you notquite.
I guess that's the thing isn't it?
They just don't feel about us the way parents are supposed to feel...I.e. love.
I blamed myself for so long.
Thought I must be a dreadful person.
But if course I'm not. I am not perfect by any means but I did nothing to deserve that treatment.
I could write pages and pages about their treatment of me, but I am sure you have either heard it all before or even experienced some of it yourself :(
I am so blessed. I have a lovely dh (we have been together 17 years) 2 beautiful boys that I am so proud of and one or two close friends. Great pils who have helped us so much.
I think Xmas brings up lots of emotions for me. Some happy. Some not. It's a strange time of year isn't it? So many people really struggle.
I hope everyone on this thread has a peaceful and stress free Xmas x

[ledkr]

Mistletoe yes I see that now actually.my sister takes my dd every year for Xmas treats like panto or Santa when really it would just be nice to do it together.
Does anyone know why this happens?
I've not done anything apart from being born!
I'm nice I think. I have lots if friends and have worked all my life with the less fortunate. I've not got a judgemental bone on my body.
I actually quite like myself despite those fuckers

[ScarletWomanoftheChristmasTree]

Hey badvoc, I have kept up a superficial and distant relationship with my mother since hideous showdown about 12 years ago. She was SO vile to me and it was the final straw and, looking back, gave me the justification and opportunity I needed to finally put an end to it all.

We now speak for about 60 seconds on Christmas day (just before she ruins Christmas for my brothers and their families)

We email very occasionally (2 or 3 times a year) and send birthday and christmas cards and presents.

And that's it.

i think she is actually ok with this too. I think she knows somewhere deep down that I have got the measure of her. And she doesn't want a proper relationship with me in case I tell her what I think of her and her behaviour and her treatment of me and my brothers (which I certainly tried to do about 12 years ago, but no one can out-viscious my mother - Nowadays I really couldn't be bothered to go into it any more, and am glad I don't have to.) And she knows if she does/says anything awful to me, that I just won't bother with her at all, and I will tell my brothers and she will look as though she is in the wrong, so it's also safer for her not to have too much contact with me.

My brothers involve her in their lives fully and take her on holidays etc and she ruins everything for them, storms out, causes fights, gives everyone merry hell etc, and when it gets really bad they phone me and tell me about it, and I sympathise. But I always end up thinking, thank god I did what I did, difficult as it was, it was the right thing for me, my children and my sanity.

As the only daughter, the focus was mainly on me, though she actually treats everyone badly, falls out with friends, neighbours, DILs, just everyone, though not at the same time. She likes an audience and to get people to side with her against others in arguments. Loves stirring it all up.

Now I'm out of the game, my dear brothers and their wives and families suffer all the more, and they feel they can't ditch her because then she'd have no-one. I have felt bad about this, but they are more and more understanding of what I have chosen, as they experience more and more of this hideousness. Nowadays, if they fall out with her for a period of time, say a month or two, they regard this as time off!

christmas day this year will be the same with regard to my family as always. She'll go round to one of my brothers houses. I will ring my brothers to say Happy Christmas, and then I'll say it to her and she'll say it to me.

Within a couple of hours, whichever brother's house she is at, he will ring me to tell me she's just stormed off/ruined christmas/had a go at one of their mother in laws/ complained of not nice enough presents (yes really!) or whatever. My husband and daughters always enjoy my re-telling of whatever sorry tale it is. I am getting off scot-free. and so are my girls.

So, yes I am glad it is this way, which doesn't mean I'm not sad about it sometimes.

But yes, I'm glad.

It is manageable.

[ledkr]

Scarlett she sounds hideous!
Surely one day she will push your brothers too far or at least their wives.

[Badvocsanta]

Scarlett.
I am so sorry. How awful for you and your brothers :(
And well done for being brave and taking a stand.
I cant even have the (satisfaction?) of a showdown with my mother...she would (and has in the past when I have tried to talk) deny everything. Say she can't remember any if it. Then cry and say she did her best.
Sigh.
What's the point?
But she didn't do her best. She has used her mental health issues to excuse her behaviour for decades.
It doesn't wash with me anymore.
And for someone who has - allegedly - suffered from clinical depression most if her adult life she is so scathing of others perceived weakness and depression.
When I developed late onset pnd with ds1 (long story but he was a very sick baby and it was an awful time) she told me and I quote "you haven't got time to be depressed"
This - from a woman I nursed through 2 breakdowns before I was 20.
:(
I took myself to the gp - who has known my family all my life almost - and told him "I will not end up like my mother". And he knew what I meant.
4 months on ADs and I recovered.

[Midwife99]

Oh Scarlett - what a relief it must be to not have to deal with her at Christmas like your brothers!! She sounds a nightmare!!

[Midwife99]

Badvoc - the denial is unbelievable isn't it?!! My parents have not even acknowledged what I have told them is the reason that I have withdrawn!

[Badvocsanta]

Yes it is.
Totally unbelievable :(

[ScarletWomanoftheChristmasTree]

Yes ledkr, she does push them too far. One of my SILs has regular bust ups with her, and gives as good as she gets, the last one a total screaming match when my mother was on holiday with them (god, why do they still do this when they know how it will go?) with my sil saying to her words to the effect of -You've already lost your relationship with your daughter because of your behaviour, do you want this to happen with rest of your family? Huge enormous fireworks ensued, followed by a three month silence. My brother said it was lovely, restful time off from the usual nonsense.

My long-suffering brothers have saved her financially and pay for her life now. They take her out to dinner, theatre, have her on holiday, have her for Christmas, phone her regularly, and whatever they do it IS NEVER ENOUGH..oh god am starting to feel bad now.

But they choose to stay, she's excellent at guilt trips etc. and all of us crave a normal family so much, I think they think if they just keep trying,and sometimes she's not so bad, yadda yadda yadda. But it isn't sustainable and their children are much younger than mine, so don't know how it will turn out, and how long their wives will tolerate it.

And yes midwife, a relief. All year round!

Don't worry badvoc,the time will come I expect.

[ledkr]

Does anyone find their experiences skew their opinions of others. I feel really odd about dh close relationship with his parents and fe all jealous and spiteful when he talks to or about them but I hide it well cos I know it's not normal

[Badvocsanta]

Yes ledkr
I sometimes get bit cheesed off with Dhs need to tell his parents everything.
But I recognise that it's because I can't with mine. Anything I did ever tell them was used against me at a later date.
But that's my problem, not theirs.
I know I cannot have the relationship with my parents and siblings that I would like.
But that is not my fault.
Things have been a lot better since I backed off some years ago. I think I just need to take it to the next stage iyswim? I am hoping it happens naturally rather than as the result of some major trauma - because of course it would be all my fault. As usual.
I don't want to give them the satisfaction of saying "look, we were right all along!"

[Midwife99]

Comparing In laws!! My particular gift is choosing husbands with even worse parents than mine!! So actually I have never experienced what normal families are! I hope my children do not feel the same. Apart from the fact that their mother can't stay married!

[HisstletoeAndWhine]

Ledkr, we are not in the wrong, we never were. We're actually so nice they're scared of us. It's our spirit and joy they are terrified of, they have to crush it, or risk failing to measure up to US.

Jealousy. Insecurity. Fear. Inadequacy.

IMHO.

The more nasty they are, the more they are threatened. Take it as a f*cked up compliment...


A stretch too far? :D

[DontstepontheBaubles]

Ledkr I relate to that. I struggle with jealousy over other close families and bitterness at times. ExHs Mum rang him all the time, when married and it annoyed me I didn't consider it normal, due to my family.

I'm lurking a lot at the moment but just wanted to pop in and agree a little with Ledkr.