"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Hi, thanks so much for the replies especially jess for talking to me at 2 in the morning! DH and I have grudgingly resolved to make the best of Christmas and try to bite our lips so that everyone has a good time - coming up with an excuse not to go would just be too obvious unfortunately.

But I also feel like something has shifted and I will have to say something if my mother tries to manipulate us again - if it was any time other than Christmas I would be doing so today.

I know I am the only one who can change the pattern so my DD doesn't end up affected by my behaviour as I am by my mother's and she was by hers. I have to be the bigger person but that's a hell of a responsibility and it's so draining, expect to find me on here often!

I hope everyone has as good a Christmas as they can, best wishes to you all :)

Merry Christmas to you too, wishing you all an un-argumentative, un-manipulative week
Hoping that our christmas will remain unruined x

Pumpkin, really glad you found this thread. Sorry to hear about what you and your DH have been through. I would recommend you take a look at a book called Toxic Parents by Susan Forward.

I am no authority and can only go on my own experience but the thing is that your DH is not able to separate himself from his family and say: yes, they are shit. Because admitting they are shit makes him feel shit. Every time something or someone reminds him of what they are like, he will feel ashamed and humiliated, and will also be grieving for what he didn't and doesn't have.

If you are upset or angry when they contact him, it becomes another situation in which he has done something wrong and pissed someone off.

I know it's horrible because you don't want to see your shitty in laws or see them upsetting him and who can blame you. But it sounds like he is seeing contact from them as another bad thing he has done and not something that happens TO him. When you are angry with them, he may feel you're angry with him.

It's not easy to alter patterns of behaviour learned in childhood, and we can end up repeating them again and again. I'm not diminishing what you are going through just trying to offer some insight and apologise if I just sound like a twat.

He won't seek help - but you could. To help deal with your own feelings about all this and also to figure out how to move forward. Relate might be a good place to start, or NAPAC has some good resources (www.napac.org.uk).

Merry Xmas to everyone and sorry about your mum's fall Jaffa.

Merry Christmas everyone xx

Thankyou jessjess i absolutely see where you are coming from.
It's not so much that i'm angry as such, just can't believe how much they can upset him just by one phonecall

Pumpkin, wouldn't blame you if you are angry with them for putting him through all this. It really sucks. And the purpose of my ramble above was absolutely not to make you feel bad.

You haven't made me sad jessjess
I'm just going through that realisation things aren't going to get much better.
I think mil has contacted him again today, as he was very antisocial when my dad came round to drop presents of for dc and he just sat there in his gaming chair the whole entire time with a scowl across his face..... He has since gone to work, just hoping he hasn't taken his mood with him.

He has also deleted all texts & phone history from her on his phone, yet everyone else remains on his phone-very odd just hoping she hasn't sent him anything malicous.

Keeping my fingers crossed she leaves him bee tomorrow, as it's christmas day and it would be a shame for her to ruin everything again...

pumpkin, new family tradition.

phones off, unplugged at christmas.

this thread is a revelation - i don't want to post too much at the min but i'll return later

Well Hiss, i have a new number so i am uncontactable by any of them.
But dh refuses to switch his phone, all though i have asked
They have our home number but im putting that on silent.

hi again all -just having a wobble I think a lot of things have been triggered by this new relationship I'm in but I feel like I'm inferior to other people because I don't have a family I suppose the rest of the year it doesn't bother me. But my dad (who's never been around) is really not interested and there's only the toxic sis who I've not seen for so many years. If I saw her it would make mine and dcs life worse, assuming she'd even want to (which it'd appear not.)

the thing about it is that again I'm left with the feeling that it's all my fault. This is because a couple of my mums siblings haven't spoken to me since her death (quite a toxic family and she was an alcoholic) and exh did a massive character assassination when he left for OW.

I'd love to have a family and have always wanted this. I try to focus on dcs and making a nice childhood for them as far as I can. sorry for the ramble

Sorry to hear what you are going throughsarah, can't imagine what it must be like not to have a family
Like you say focus on making your dcs life special, and merry christmas to you & your family x

Update on today, no-one turned up at the house thank god but mil has rang home phone and breathed down the phone at me and hung up
And has just phoned landline again, which i didn't answer -fucking cow has now woke up all the dc of whom were sound asleep waiting for Santa!

Dh is working, he cannot take calls-mil knows he is working so why phone my landline for-the woman is a nutjob, she probably knows the ringer will wake dc and will wind me up.

Unplug the phone.
What a nightmare.

Hello lovely women of the Stately Homes!

I'm officially doing my first Christmas without my parents. For weeks I feared this would be depressing and isolating, but it's not! I have no DCs or DP so it's just me and my Labrador. I have a fireplace full of candles, Mozart playing, a contented dog chewing a bone, foie gras on gingerbread toast with fresh figs and Monbazillac, smoked fish on warm blinis with crème fraîche and an Australian Chardonnay, and a couple well-chosen gifts under the tree. Skype dates with best friend, sister, and much-loved Aunt and Uncle, text messaging with friends, and a potluck Christmas lunch with a group of friends tomorrow. Days packed with plans and people to see between now and New Year. I am so not alone.

My enabler Dad sent me a Christmas e-card which I haven't opened. I don't hold out any hope that it will contain anything sensible, given his attachment to his denial, so I'm leaving it for now.

Really, this first Christmas NC with my parents has been much, MUCH better than I had hoped.

Much love and many hugs to all of you.

thanks pumpkin and I second unplugging phone

hotdamn that sounds very nice - fabulous food! well done to you and very best wishes to you and to all on this stately homes thread

Hotdamn that sounds fab!

NC doesn't work for me right now, sadly, but your Christmas sounds just perfect!

I think I will join you all in the NY. My mother has been awful to us all our lives and has fallen out with everyone. I was last and always toed the line as I wanted peace tbh. Earlier this year I told her that something's she was swing were hurtful and she went nuts and has now cut me out,this is the first Xmas ever notmseeingnher but every year she ruins Xmas for all of us and so tbh planning it without her has been a joy.seeing my sister who really took a lot of shit from her so excited and relaxed about us justbhavingna day without the constant criticism is lovely we should have done it sooner. Kept the peace for ds sake but he is 18 now and gets it and not bothered at all merry Xmas x

Great mil has just phoned dh whilst he was on way home from work & he has come home in one of his dark moods along with "its your fault mum cant see the kids" "she wants us round there tomorrow"

Ffs i have had enough, i just feel like walking away, i've now been crying as he didn't even bother to give me a hug when he got in walked straight past me into the hall and started shouting at me. I ended up crying & smashing a glass as i'm finding this so frustrating

So thats another xmas ruined as he'll be in this mood for days now, i'm affected, the dc are affected.

Ffs that woman can even ruin christmas even when she aint around

HotDamn am raising a cheer for you, that sounds utterly fab. Pumpkin I'm so sorry you're having a crap time, just look after yourself and your dcs.

Sarah you're doing the right thing focusing on yourself and dcs.

I hope everyone gets through Christmas, we'll all still be here once it's over, best thoughts to everyone.

Pumpkin I'm sorry, that really sucks.

Hotdamn I have to say that sounds great.

DH and I went to the pub for a bit and a mate of ours was talking about not wanting to go to his mums for xmas. He always talks about how his parents don't have much money and we were talking about how family Christmases arent always great and he said rather pointedly "Well if you have money it's alright." He's been to my parents' house once to help with something and evidently thinks having a nice house and money means my family life must have been perfect.

Which really pissed me off, hence grumbling here.

Pumpkin, what are you going to do? Are you going to the mil tomorrow? I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this.

Hotdamn...how wonderfully decadent, it sounds fabulous. Enjoy the peace, and the relaxation and have a fantastic time.

Merry xmas everyone

I have a MlL who raised my nephew and he now lives with me. MIL tends to use all kinds of mind games and tricks on the male members of the family to manipulate them into doing her bidding. Her big thing is assuming everyone hates my SIL and we all won't tolerate her presence and we do it through gritted teeth cos we all hate her so much which is nonsense. My nephew has an okay relationship with SIl who is his mum but she can't raise him cos she has mental health issues. MIL is in hospital and has been for two months. The other day I visited MIL and she said "sob sob sob I hate to think of (SIL) being all alone at Christmas.". I just looked MIL straight in the eye and said "why should she be alone?" I can't make it more obvious that yes SIL is welcome for Christmas dinner, yes she can come, it is NO big deal, but still MIL spent ages giving me good reasons why we should have SIL over, and it's like, I already said yes!!

anyway I spoke to nephew today about this, he is 12, I said that MiL often cries to get her own way and she seems to believe everyone hates his mum and I hope he knows we don't hate her and she is welcome for Christmas, and I said that MiL has this thing about manipulating people, specially males, with her tears, cos she does it to my dh, and nephew said that yes she does it to him too and it's very wearing and he knows we like SIL and certainly don't hate her.

So I just wanted to share this to say that kids brought up by toxic, in denial caregivers can be deprogrammed and taught to recognise the mind games and not to grow up copying that behaviour, I'm so proud of nephew for recognising and not copying bad patterns of behaviour.

Pumpkin have you read' Susan Forward's Toxic In-laws?

It's written for the spouses of people who have abusive parents but are still completely in their thrall. Your husband is still caught up in a web of fear, obligation and guilt towards his mother, and the hope against hope that if he's a good boy and does what she says she will love him one day.

Only he can come to the realisation that she can't and won't. Meanwhile, you do need to protect yourself and the DC.

It's not your fault that MIL can't see the children: it's hers, she's reaping the rewards of her shitty behaviour. But neither MIL nor, by extension, your DH can understand that she should be held accountable for her own behaviour; that it has consequences.

Goodness I didn't know she had another book especially for in-laws. Been reading Toxic Parents and it's v good except it insists, as they all do, that all kids blame themselves and seek their parents' approval, and as ever I feel like a freak as I don't fit that.

Hope everyone has a good day xx