Any relationship possible with narcissistic mother?

[ScarletWomanoftheVillage]

For the last twelve-ish years I have had a minimal (emails, birthday cards) relationship with my mother, who is a narcissist and a trouble-maker. I am happy with my reasons for breaking contact - it was to do with putting my mental health first so I could bring up my daughters in peace.

From time to time, I think...but she is my mother, I love her, this can't go on for ever etc... And usually just as I am thinking that I should re-establish contact, I hear from one or other of my two brothers about the horrendous trouble she makes for them and their wives and families, and it always confirms to me that I did the right thing.

However, my wonderful daughters are grown up now (so can't use needing to be in a good state for their sakes anymore), and I have moved to the West Country (most of family in SE), and my mother will be 70 soon.

I was wondering whether it might be worth going to whatever birthday 'do' my brothers will arrange for her....

Is this just pointless? I think I am realistic about the fact that she is just like this and will NEVER change, so I am not hoping she will have turned into the mother we'd have all liked to have or anything like that. It's just that I find it hard to accept that this state of affairs will go on for ever and that she will one day die and that I will not have seen her.

Being a mother myself, I could not allow such a thing to occur between myself and my daughters and would go to the ends of the earth to make relations good between us. Thankfully my relationship with my now adult daughters is just beautiful and no-one is afraid of anyone else and we are all able to be ourselves etc, so I have never had to repair it because it has never been broken. I'm trying to say that, in my mother's position I would have been heartbroken.

At the moment our relationship consists of infrequent but friendly emails and birthday cards. Once I stood up to her, she realised I would not be bullied anymore and basically didn't want anything to do with me. I think she has also been more comfortable with this distance between us.

Any thoughts?

sorry, my brain typing's gone awry

And thank you too forgemenot just seen your post.

It all rings very loud bells, especially the dramatic suicide threats, but you're not my SIL ;) You've acknowledged the behaviour is wrong, you can't possibly be her

I'd definitely stop and think before agreeing to meet her, this is really toxic stuff and you need to be completely ready.

If you are happy with the boundary you have set I would stick to it. To my mind it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissistic (it will always be superficial at best and such people always but always move the goalposts. Whatever is done for them is never ever enough either).

Narcissists can and do say the most nasty things and age does not necessarily mellow such people. It is essential to maintain and keep emotional distance from such people

I do not doubt for one second that you love your mother but she has made the terrible choice not to love.

Narcissists are so much trouble that only people with special prior training (i.e., who were raised by narcissists) get seriously involved with them. Sometimes narcissists' children become narcissists, too, but this is by no means inevitable, provided stable love was given by someone, such as the non-narcissist parent or grandparents. Beyond that, a happy marriage will heal many old wounds for the narcissist's child. But, even though children of narcissists don't automatically become narcissists themselves and can survive with enough intact psychically to lead happy and productive lives away from their narcissistic parents, because we all love our parents whether they can love us back or not, children of narcissists are kind of bent "You can't get blood out of a stone," but children of narcissists keep trying, as if by bonding with new narcissists we could somehow cure our narcissistic parents by finding the key to their heart. Thus, we've been trained to keep loving people who can't love us back, and we will often tolerate or actively work to maintain connections with narcissistic individuals whom others, lacking our special training, find alienating and repellent from first contact, setting ourselves up to be hurt yet again in the same old way. Once narcissists know that you care for them, they'll suck you dry demand all your time, be more work than a newborn babe -- and they'll test your love by outrageous demands and power moves. In their world, love is a weakness and saying "I love you" is asking to be hurt, so be careful: they'll hurt you out of a sort of sacred duty. They can't or won't trust, so they will test your total devotion. If you won't submit to their tyranny, then you will be discarded as "no good," "a waste of time," "you don't really love me or you'd do whatever I ask," "I give up on you." (Note: In many instances, narcissists' demands are not only outrageous but also impossible to fulfill even if you want to please them. Plus if you actually want to do what they want you to do, that would be too much like sharing, so they won't want it anymore.)

If you've had a narcissist for a parent, you are probably not afraid of dying and going to hell -- you have lived hell on Earth. Narcissists cannot be satisfied and do a tremendous amount of damage to their children and partners in their relentless demand for a perfect outer appearance to reflect the perfect inner image that obsesses them. Kyrie eleison.

Such people as well lack any empathy.

Am I surprised that she has now insulted the relation you mention - not at all.
Its par for the course re such people.

They're pretty good at maintaining a conventional persona in superficial associations with people who mean absolutely nothing to them, and they'll flatter the hell out of you if you have something they can use or if, for some reason, they perceive you as an authority figure. That is, as long as they think you don't count or they're afraid of you, they'll treat you well enough that you may mistake it for love. But, as soon as you try to get close to them, they'll say that you are too demanding and, if you ever say "I love you," they'll presume that you belong to them as a possession or an appendage, and treat you very very badly right away. The abrupt change from decent treatment to outright abuse is very shocking and bewildering, and it's so contrary to normal experience that I was plenty old before I realized that it was actually my expression of affection that triggered the narcissists' nasty reactions. Once they know you are emotionally attached to them, they expect to be able to use you like an appliance and shove you around like a piece of furniture. If you object, then they'll say that obviously you don't really love them or else you'd let them do whatever they want with you. If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door. The narcissist will treat you just like a broken toy or tool or an unruly body part: "If thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off". This means you.

So, yes, it's possible to get along with narcissists, but it's probably not worth bothering with.

Scarlet

Have a look at the website "Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" as this could help you as well.

^^ listen to attilla. She has given me great advice in the past, knows her stuff!

OP, I think you have to be ruthlessly focused on what would make you feel better.

The chances are your mum may well pull some narcissistic nonsense if you see her but it sounds like you are very aware of that and have a clear idea of what to expect so I don't think you are wandering in to this naively.

If you feel you can stay sane and serene around her despite any potential antics, and that you will feel better for having seen her, then it makes sense to go as you will gain something from it even if she does go a bit haywire.

If you think there is the slightest chance she will upset you, then, personally, I think you have to be kind to yourself and not go.

The only person to whom you owe anything is yourself - not your mother, not anyone else in your family. If you think about seeing her vs not seeing her, which one makes YOU feel better?

Be strong, I am sure you'll make the right decision for you,

x

PS I second listening to the wise Attila who helped me enormously when I was having a narc mother crisis!

Attila - brilliant! Thank you. All absolutely spot on. Your words are so accurate for my mother it's as if you are me! Me writing about her on a more articulate day. (Hope that doesn't make me sound like a narc, all me, me meeeeeee....)

Have been to that website before...and sat there with my mouth open, understanding finally, what had been happening all this time.

It was a massive revelation to realise that this is something which affects many people - I honestly thought my mother was an unbelievable one-off before that.

Have always had that worry lurking in the back of my head that this could have been passed on to me and i fight any tendency I suspect in myself.

Ginshizz, thank you for your words as well.

If you should be so uppity as to express a mind and heart of your own, then they will cut you off -- just like that, sometimes trashing you and all your friends on the way out the door

Attila, yes, this.

Thank you for the reminder

I think we can tend if we're not careful towards our parents own black or white thinking rather than more realistic shades of grey. Op sounds as if you've mastered the latter in regard to your dm so imho more helpful to continue in this vein. Just my view. Ive found it very tempting to damn my dps for everything they've done/said/thought but now realise that this is A) deeply unfair to them (there was some good with the bad tho not at all absolving them of blame)
B) makes me no better than them - otherwise I'd be scapegoating them now as they did me
C) is psychologically v unhealthy... For me - to feel such absolute venom towards my parents. I prefer something a little more temperate.

I think you can handle this one party. It would be very nice for the rest of the family. You sound as if you want to do it for you. Your mother is 70. You can probably tolerate meeting her occasionally like this.

My mother has narcisstic traits.... and even that is hard. She sounds awful.

But I do think Ok to go to birthday do, but go on your terms - not alone (with your partner if daughter or you have or someone else to give emotional support) and just be polite and try not to be drawn into any insults dished out. And just leave early if you not comfortable.

Thank you

Ok, so when I started this thread, this was all academic because, although I obviously knew her 70th birthday was coming up, no invitations had been issued to me or anything, it was just something I was thinking about.

Just now I have had a text from my brother: scarlet darling hi tricky one for you - m wants you to come to her birthday dinner. (then a list of people who would be there) I've said I'd ask you as she feels strongly about it - anyway I've asked now! talk soon.

Am sitting at home anxiously waiting for my dh to bring my dd safely home and now this. It has made me feel sick. Don't know what to reply.

Funnily enough had exchange of friendly texts with m yesterday. This is rare, and was brought on by me sending her a thank you text for sending us a plant for christmas. This exchange is what probably made her think enough was enough with the minimal contact (12-ish years). I'm sure she would like to see me. But I also think she would like her friends to see that all her children are present for her birthday.

I live nowhere near so would have to travel and stay at my brothers, so would be difficult to escape from dinner if it all got a bit much. On the other hand, would get to see my brothers who I haven't seen for ages.

I am 48 and now feel like a child...

Scarlet, your mum has you in knots. If you were truly fine with being at the birthday do you wouldnt be on mumsnet now. Your mum probably wants you there so it looks good.

My narc mum died last year alone, all her family (large one too) had cut their ties. I hadnt seen her in 5 years. I grieved for her, more for what we should've had. You know what i do not regret not seeing her, my mental health improved massively. Its ok to let go and move on.
Dont let it spoil your xmas xxx

My mother sounds just like yours. I broke off contact with her 7 years ago and have been much happier.

My mother is 77 and I felt very guilty. Earlier this year I started seeing her again. It's very much on my terms once every 2 or 3 months in a neutral place. All well and good. BUT she has started to revert to type. She's phoning the house demanding contact and accusing me of lying etc.

I am beginning to regret letting her back into my life. I have started to get stressed and dread the phone ringing. It took great courage for me to stand up to her in the first place. I'm not sure if I can do it again.

Your mum won't change. I would think very carefully before you do anything.

Thank you HKnight and Mocking, thank you.

I will think very carefully. I just wish they could have held off mentioning it until after christmas as it sort of hangs above my head now.

The anxiety you are feeling now tells you everything you want to know. Don't go if you don't want to. You don't have to love her because she's your mother you know, there's no law saying you should. She's an adult and has made all her own choices.

my wonderful daughters are grown up now (so can't use needing to be in a good state for their sakes anymore)

You realise that your own sake is a good enough reason to do whatever you need to stay in a good state, right?

Thank you so much.

Am trying not to let this dominate my Christmas time with my daughters.