Support for those in Emotionally Abusive Relationships: 13

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Am I being abused?

Verbal Abuse A wonderfully non-hysterical summary. If you're unsure, read the whole page and see if you're on it.
Emotional abuse from the same site as above
Emotional abuse a more heartfelt description
a check list Use this site for some concise diagnostic lists and support
Signs of Abuse & Control Useful check list
why financial abuse is domestic violence Are you a free ride for a cocklodger, or supposed to act grateful for every penny you get for running the home?
Women's Aid: "What is Domestic Violence?" This is also, broadly, the Police definition.
20 signs you're with a controlling and/or abusive partner Exactly what it says on the tin

Books :

"Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft - The eye-opener. Read this if you read nothing else.
"The Verbally Abusive Relationship" by Patricia Evans ? He wants power OVER you and gets angry when you prove not to be the dream woman who lives only in his head.
"The Verbally Abusive Man, Can He Change?" by Patricia Evans - Answer: Perhaps - ONLY IF he recognises HIS issues, and if you can be arsed to work through it. She gives explicit guidelines.
"Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward. The author is a psychotherapist who realised her own marriage was abusive, so she's invested in helping you understand yourself just as much as helping you understand your abusive partner.
"The Emotionally Abusive Relationship: How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing" by Beverley Engels - The principle is sound, if your partner isn't basically an arse, or disordered.
"Codependent No More : How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself" by Melody Beattie - If you a rescuer, you're a co-dependent. It's a form of addiction! This book will help you.
But whatever you do, don't blame yourself for being Co-dependent!

Websites :

So, you're in love with a narcissist - Snarky, witty, angry, but also highly intelligent: very good for catharsis
Dr Irene's verbal abuse site - motherly advice to readers' write-ins from a caring psychotherapist; can be a pain to navigate but very validating stuff
Out of the fog - and now for the science bit! Clinical, dispassionate, and very informative website on the various forms of personality disorders and how they impact on family and intimate relationships.
Get your angries out ? You may not realise it yet, but you ARE angry. Find out in what unhealthy ways your anger is expressing itself. It has probably led you to staying in an unhealthy relationship.
Melanie Tonia Evans is a woman who turned her recovery from abuse into a business. A little bit "woo" and product placement-tastic, but does contain a lot of useful articles.
Love fraud - another site by one woman burned by an abusive marriage
You are not crazy - one woman's experience. She actually has recordings of her and her abusive partner having an argument, so you can hear what verbal abuse sounds like. A pain to navigate, but well worth it.
Baggage reclaim - Part advice column, part blog on the many forms of shitty relationships.
www.heart-2-heart.ca/women/page1.htm heart to heart]] a wealth of information and personal experiences drawn together in one place

what couples therapy does for abusers

If you find that he really wants to change
should I stay or should I go bonus materials this is a site containing the material for men who want to change?please don?t give him the link?print out the content for him to work through.

The Bill of Rights
bill of rights here is what you should expect as a starting point for your treatment in a relationship, as you will of course be treating others!!

[ponygirlcurtis]

That's horrible to hear FW saying those things to your child.
But so pleased to hear that your mediator had the measure of him bertie - it's all to do with them, all to do with jealousy. He doesn't like the DS is closer to you, it's as if DS is a possession, and he 'wins' if DS likes him more. SO childish. And so not fair to DS, who is a person in his own right and is being manipulated by his dad. Hopefully no more. (or else, he'll be doing it more subtly...)

[tryingsoonflying]

Bertie, so sorry you have had such a turbulent time; it must have been really hard being away from DS and it was lovely how pleased you both were to see each other again for you that your oh is trying to drive a wedge between you and DS out of jealousy - are these fws crazy; it's the dcs who matter in all of this, not the fws' giant toddlerishness. Grrrr! Well done your mediator, she sounds great!

My FW has been quiet of late, much less shouting, think he's been getting advice from home. That's good for household ambience but I know from experience it's only the usual swings and roundabouts and that we'll be plunged into stomach-aching situations again soon. So I'm signing tenancy agreement on flat, and managed to get a loan to set things straight. What's a bit of a shame is that for the first time in four years (since credit crunch etc) our finances are slowly starting to heal, what with me being in work and just things getting a bit better all round, so what I am about to do will of course shoot that little recovery back down into the ground. But I've got to keep focused on the big picture and think what it would be like in 10, 20 years still being chained to an increasingly arrogant and nasty fw, or indeed, cast aside once kids are grown and being destroyed by that because I am much weaker from further years of fwittery (he told me that as soon as they were grown up he would dump me). (He's a callous one when it suits him but all tearful and emotional when he feels hurt)

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

The fw in this house worried that I would stay with him till the dcs were grown up and then dump him, which was rather hard to reassure him about as I thought at the time that that sounded quite a good plan! That was before I realised the damage that is being done to the dcs in all this, which you are all more clued up about. Till about a week ago, bertie, if nsdh said that the dcs were absolutely fine, I assumed any concerns I might have had were insignificant and agreed with him. So I'm impressed by your strength of mind.

FW's planning a holiday for the family for next April. He keeps asking me to choose between certain options (which I've just realised today is a great way of making it look like I'm in control while he really is) and all I can think is, I hope we're not still together by then.

A question for those of you who've left: what did you say to your dcs to explain why you left? Do they seem to need a lot of explanation about what was wrong or just a couple of sentences? I guess I'm worried when the times comes I wouldn't know what was age-appropriate.

[foolonthehill]

Depends on the ages and what they have seen.

For mine it was obvious that he was treating everyone badly in the house but as nice as pie out. I told them that daddy was leaving because he was not treating us nicely, that he would be gone for a long time and we would see if he could find a way to behave well (oh the optimism!!). They accepted this as an incontrovertible truth (ages 10 down to 2), I told them all together so that they would be able to support and remind one-another what had been said, then gave them time to aske ?'s first al together and then a few days later individually.

Think i have to talk to them again...cos he's never going to change and we are best off without him...ho-hum, will let you know how I go with that one. Wishe I 'd put that as the likely outcome at the beginnign

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Were they ok with it all? My two eldest dd's are quite attached to their daddy (despite or maybe because it's so hard to secure his attention). Will have to be strong to weather their response when it happens, I think.

See how I'm talking about separation as a target now? Much clearer in my mind that he is abusive and it's not acceptable and I don't have to stay and take it. Pats on the back, please! :o

[tryingsoonflying]

Patting

[tryingsoonflying]

There's a very sad lady on this thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1607026-So-miserable who seems to be in need of support if anyone's around tonight?

[tryingsoonflying]

Charlotte I am worrying about what I'll tell kids, too. As the new flat will be in dm's name, I am thinking softly softly, ie dad and I have been having a few problems so we are going to GM's new flat for a while but home is still there and we will go back there soon (subtext to self - but only without fw in it). Thoughts?

[MaggieMay05]

Yippeeeeee!!!! I found you all again!! I thought I had lost you all! We get through those threads quickly hey!

Am still at my parents so not been on much so only been able to have a gander at the last few posts Bertie so sorry things have been tough lately - stay strong - FWs always seem to use kids like that and then wonder why they don't like them. Trying wow - well done on the flat and good luck! Everyone else will try and catch up with everything soon and write properly.

My head has been all over the place since arriving at my parents, I arrived wanting to look at places to rent around here and register my daughter for school here etc so I am near my parents and have a support network. But just over the last few days I have done a huge U turn. My dad is great now but he is an ex-EA and mine and my brothers childhoods were hell with it. He is totally different now and my DD and DS are shown so much love by their granddad it is hard to believe he is the same person. However, every now and then he slips up and I hear him talking to my mum like a piece of dirt. My DD has overheard this too and has not responded well. I think he is still EA towards my poor mum but I guess it has become so normal for her to take. He stopped doing it to me the day I left home all those years ago but my DBro still gets it from him every now and then. This is the main reason I have changed my mind about moving near them. It would be like going from the frying pan into the fire. Also been thinking how DS (18mths) who has no clue what is going on would react when older to me moving so far away from his daddy. Me and DBro have no relationship with our dad whatsoever, it is basically just small talk to keep DMum happy. I am hoping I stop the pattern and my DC won't grow up hating their father and resending their mother for staying with him like me and DBro do. But I know this will happen if I stay with FW. History repeating itself. DMum has been telling me one minute to get out and not make the same mistake she did and then another minute she is saying how can I leave FW as he is so lovely and am I sure I'm not overreacting. Sometimes she hurts my heart and brain as she has had so many years of FWierty herself it is just normal for her.

DD (A very clever 3yrs) totally understands the situation and keeps telling me she doesn't like daddy as he is grumpy all the time. He has wanted to speak to the kids every evening since we arrived - this is most unusual as we are only suppose to be visiting my parents (aka delivering my important docs/keepsakes etc for safe storage) and when these visits happen he will usually only call every other day I have had to bribe DD a few times to actually speak to him to avoid conflict until I came to my senses today and just told him straight she didn't want to speak to him and didn't want to come home. As you can imagine that went down like a s**t sandwich. He also sent me a text the other night saying how much he "missed me and the kids and he even missed coming home to me to a row xxxxx" Ummmm ok - I don't miss the rows. I never responded to it and he didn't mention it when we spoke several times since on the phone either! Todays call started off with him asking when we were coming home. I said not sure, maybe Monday and he said "oh thats a long time away, I didn't realise you would be so long but glad you will be coming home" I can tell he is trying to be on his best behaviour. Whats that saying? You don't know what you've got until its gone. Well for me actions speak louder than words and his actions are loud and clear whist his BS words just go in one ear and out of the other. If he missed me and kids that much he wouldn't stay out until 5am when we are actually at home hey? Arsehole.

So plan of action.....return monday...he will be busy with work now until new year so should have house to ourselves a lot look around some more local/nearby towns primary schools for DD and then make decision about where to move to. For those that have left and trying how far away did you move from your FW? I am thinking maybe the next town so its far enough I won't bump into him daily but close enough for DC to go easily for their daddy days etc. Going to confirm storage place too so I can get all my stuff out bit by bit which will help furnish a new place. However if things turn really bad, all my really important bits are here at my mums already so have no worries about just leaving with nothing else from the house if I have to before planned.

My head hurts. Why is this all so complicated and why when I am away from FW do I actually miss him despite all the bad horrible nasty things he has done to me and our DC? Arrggghhh! Can't sleep! And sharing a room with DC here, we all keep waking each other up!

Hope you are all doing ok tonight, will try and catch up with other posts asap! Stay strong ladies!

[MaggieMay05]

ps - Charlotte and Trying also really worried about what to say to DC when leaving but at the moment DD seems to already understand that what daddy is doing and being grumpy is not right and makes us all sad. She is wise beyond her years bless her little (3 year old) cotton socks! DS has no clue and the explaining will come later on in years for him which I think can be dangerous. A good thing he will never remember the bad times but a bad thing he won't actually realise how bad these times were and why I have no choice but to leave. Just hope I am not going to be partly responsible for creating two off the rails teenagers in years to come [shocked]

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

Although your DS will probably see him for contact, no? And presumably he will observe plenty of similar examples of bad behaviour - just like hilde 's poor dcs are. With the two contrasting experiences of your house and his, they should both be in a good position to see why you had to leave.

That's what I'm hoping, anyway!

[MatchsticksForMyEyes]

My dc are 2 and almost 5. I told the eldest that mummy and daddy weren't getting on and there was too much shouting and arguing, so we were moving to a house by ourselves where there'd be no more of that. Said we both still loved them and it wasn't their fault. Lots of tears from DD, but she seems to be coping well after I warned ex the first time he tried saying how lonely he was in front of he
The bit someone said about the eresenting the dc's relationship with me resonated, as he used to react like a child if DD didn't want to kiss him goodbye. I think DS is on a pedestal as basically ex is a misogynist.
I think a psychologist would pin it on his dad being abandoned by his mum, that having a profound effect on him and consequently passing that view of women onto my ex.
I am dreading starting divorce proceedings off on Mon as it will make it all so real. Ex also kicks off whenever money is mentioned. I didn't get anything last week for the dc as he thinks we have 'shared care' despite them seeing him once this week and no overnight stays.

[Bertiebassett]

I too worry about what to tell DS.

I hope that when he's older he will understand why I had to divorce his dad. I hope I can bring him up so he's emotionally mature....so he understands that there are unfortunately some people in the world who are immature and selfish and manipulative. So he doesn't go out into the world as an adult thinking that everybody is automatically honest and honourable (unfortunately this was the case for me...I couldn't comprehend why someone would ever be horrible to another person).

I have a friend who left her FW when her 3 DS were very young. Her FW was an alcoholic and EA. He committed suicide soon after she left him. He left her bankrupt and with nothing but her DCs (she had no other family). Her boys are now grown up and married with kids of their own. They are the nicest men you could hope to meet...mature, responsible, and devoted to their DM and their own families. She brought them up with amazing emotional maturity...they bear no resemblance to their father at all. A clear example of nurture over nature!

There's hope for us all

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

A psychologist might say that, Matchsticks... but I wonder what Lundy would have to say about the psychologist's views?

[CharlotteCollinsislost]

That is an encouraging tale, Bertie. I worry about my two elder dd's because the way they tend to act together is like a reflection of fw and me: dd1 is basically selfish (with flashes of empathy) and dd2 appeases her (with flashes of rebellion!). They're 9 (tomorrow!) and 7, so I'm hoping there's still plenty of chance to change and develop.

[lovemenot]

Hi ladies, been reading here for the last couple of weeks and you all sound like my kinda gals! Have to say I'm in awe at your strength and awareness.

Think my dh is a narc and I'm currently getting the silent treatment.

Background - we met 15 years ago, together for 4 years during which time our dd was born. Split up for 5 years, back together for 6 years and married for 3 of those. Dd is now 13.

Current silent treatment is because I asked him if he would be able to help me out with my credit card debt, he owes me 5k which has my card maxed out. He has owed me this money since our wedding when he asked me to put honeymoon and part of the reception costs on my card and he would repay it. He launched into a tirade out his debts and his business and his car payments and empty threats to sell the house and on and on and on. Then he put on his coat and went to the pub. Came back 4 hours later, changed the channel on the tv and laughed his ass off at some stupid comedy, then slept on the couch.

Am so pissed off.....I can't even ask a normal question without this type of response, instantly on the defensive and making me feel like I had asked him to sell his crown jewels!

Married life shouldn't be this bloody hard

[tryingsoonflying]

Maggie [hugs] I am rushing as we are off to dm's for weekend but will post properly when we get there or when I get back. Just had to catch up, I read posts, wow, we're all getting so strong

Strength and peace to all

[tryingsoonflying]

PS hello and welcome Love (though sorry circs have brought you this this thread ); you are so right, married life or life at all should not be this hard. Sorry I have to run, catch up later, lovely ones xxx

[janesnowdon1]

Hello everyone - another one with a FW who refuses to leave and a sad history of EA and Financial abuse. Have been lurking for a bit and want to offer hearfelt deep thanks to Fool and any others who posted the info at the top of the thread - reading my way through most of it has saved my sanity and also painfully opened my eyes about my FW and our 25 years together over the past few months.

Lovemenot - married life should not be so hard.My FW also used to do what yours did but has now cut the ranting out and just shouts that "you know I can't talk to you" and takes himself off - I used to be in agonies wondering what I could do to communicate better etc - but now I'm just glad he is out. Try and detach when he does it - you have done nothing wrong, it is not your fault.

Bertie -my FW is sleeping in the living room. My 9 year old DS has always come into the main bedroom at the weekends for a cuddle etc before going downstairs. I overheard Fw tell him "don't disturb mummy at the weekend anymore, she neeeds her sleep" he has also told me he thinks it is "unhealthy" for DS to come into the bedroom now he is not there. They do all preach from the same text sadly.

[Shriek]

hey Maggie lots of stuff swirling around, past, present and future. You are the one that has to pull through this tho, so you know where you will be most comfortable and happiest. If thats away from everyone starting anew, or in home town near support systems but far enough away from old family/patterns,, only you will know, but these are definitely your decisions for your happiness (as in noone else has a priority over this - if you are happy so will your dc, time to be selfish for you - and if you change your mind you can move again, but important for you to decide) Glad you found the new thread - yes, I panicked a bit without it!

Trying excellent news for your move, yay! Also Trying , Bertie & Charlotte was thinking back to how I broke the news to my DC; having thought that through would probably go for a very simple approach with the less said the better in many ways, but simply allowing them to ask their own questions. I think one of the most difficult things to do is to imagine we know what they need in these circs. If you give very basic information you will find out which bit is priority for them to know by the questions they ask. If you FW is away a lot anyway that lends itself to a 'he's not coming back here, but you will still see him as much/little as you want' if 'why' is the question, go for the baseline again (eg. we fight which makes us unhappy). As long as they feel they can ask, give them the control to find out what they want to know, and it may come some days later, so suggest that too, that they continue to ask when they think of anything else, or suggest a time in a few days to talk it over again (this will vary of course according to age). They need to trust you are being honest with them, which is hard, as they have to trust you at this time of insecurity no matter how difficult the truth is andyou protect them with the truth. I spent a long time shielding it all, but no more as that pretends it isn't what it is!?!? IYSWIM Ifyou wanted to go that route, then say that. Try not to blame though.

We cannot get cross at them (FW) for saying 'mummy this, mummy shouldn't do that, mummy's not nice, etc.' this is about us saying what 'we' don't want/like. I don't like this relationship I find it unhealthy, painful, I do not feel loved, feel understood, I am scared, am unhappy, etc. and its important to feel happy, safe and not scared, etc. they may feel those things too and be able to identify with your feelings around him.

Sadly this they (whether we help them too or not), will have to work out for themselves, but by speaking of our own feelings/actions (rather than his) they will feel more free to do the same, because they have a bond with their fathers (to different degrees) and need the opportunity to understand that bond/relationship, which isn't ours, only theirs. They will not thank us for speaking badly of 'their' father as it will mess with their head. They will know we don't like/hate, whatever. but it will no longer be our relationship, but theirs that matters (providing we give protection for that - which includes openess around behaviours and treatments that the child can choose to be around or not - until you think its harming).

Bertie such a triumph over adversity, what a tragic & inspirational tale.

NO SIMPLE ANSWER! (I guess is the answer) what you say tho, keep it simple for your situation, and always open for questions with respect for their relationship with their dad (as yours is over), and monitor always that the relationship is safe and healthy, putting in boundaries and talking about heathly/not healthy.

tigris hoping you are managing ok? Keep shoutin out here if you need support for anything. hope you managed to find some agencies for practical and emo support/help.

loved welcome to the gang, lots here for you, but sorry you're in this boat too. relationships can be the most lonely of places.

Same to Jane, a painful realisation. Keep talking to your boy, as thats for you to decide not Daddy, cuddles will never 'disturb' you(anytime of day or night!) Some daddies get a bit 'gay phobic' from what i've heard and want their boys to 'man up' (very sadly I've heard it of some mums too), either that or just plain jealous, so lovely to hear that you have such a close/warm relationship with your boy, he will feel comfortable to have this warmth and closeness in his future relationships - some lucky lady in the future! ;)

and I couldn't agree more charlotte the greater the 'contrast' between the two settings, the more obvious to 'see'. Only takes one to 'show the way' to fairness, love, kindness. Unfortunately when kids growing up they tend to choose the way of the most powerful, but once away from the home at least the power struggle isn't [so] visible, and mum can take the opportunity to make home a place of peace security fairness and love. If he does that too, then they will enjoy their time there, if not, his lookout (his relationship to take responsibility for).

apologies for missing anyone! but thinking of all and hoping everyone made it across to this thread?!

Is it possible to post a link from the end of the last one to this one? [MNHQ] - just to be sure.

[Shriek]

be brave matchsticks - we're all cheering you on, you can do this, and you are. Enjoy the special relationship you have, one he can only hope /dream and be jealous/resentful of; he can change that,but.....

and bertie all his FWittery won't change your dc's relationship with you, they just won't say/do those things in front of him anymore! thats what happens isnt it? we just hide the things that people don't want to see and carry on regardless! ;)

Mantra today: Carry on regardless! (IGNORE/DETACH/IGNORE/DETACH)

[lovemenot]

Thanks for the welcome! Still getting my head around all this. Was totally in denial until a couple of months ago. Put his lack of emotional input down to him being very busy at work etc. But really, a perfunctory kiss goodbye each day is not enough to sustain a relationship. No sex - 20 months and counting. No hugs, no enquiries as to how I am, how I feel. Not even sure I have dreams anymore, not that he asks.

Yes, he does stuff around the house, cooks, does his own laundry. Takes dd to horse riding on Saturdays (unless I'm not working, then he asks me to take her).

He once said "Arrogant? You can't be arrogant when you are always right"

So I can see this marriage ending. We don't have that many rows, mostly coz I'm pretty self sufficient. Last one he roared at me, called me a fucking bitch over and over. I told him he would never speak to me like that again, and he told me he reserved the right to call me a fucking bitch if I deserved it. When threatened with seperation he backed down, apologised for the words he used but not the hurt he caused. And I know that if he ever speaks to our dd like that, then that's it. Until then, I'm saving my running away fund!

Sorry for doing a me, me, me on this (I learnt from the best!!). I will get to know everyone else as we go along

[foolonthehill]

Following a night's sleep and some pondering....thoughts on:the children

1. Be honest but not exhaustive when giving information
   
   
2. Do not expect children to keep secrets (this makes children vulnerable to abuse currently and in the future)
   
   
3. Acknowledge their feelings/thoughts/take on the situation but do not "join in" with their emotions/agree/take them onto yourself (very difficult to do). Their emotions will swing around, their beliefs will alter frequently from the fantasy perfect life (which will make you feel guilty) to the awful terrible life you are giving them (which will make you feel guilty) to the better life they have now (which will make you feel smug!)
   
   
4. Use other situations/people/films to talk about appropriate/inappropriate relationship behaviour and make it your mission to give them a critical mind when think ing about what they see around them. BUT DON'T criticise their father to them or in their hearing. (They are, of course allowed to criticise him to you)
   
   
5. Allow them to love and dislike and like their NRP he's still their Dad. It's confusing.
   
   
6. Know that as the stability provider you may well get the worse behaviour as he is not safe....it means they feel better with you, not worse.
   
   
7. Try not to overreact if/when your DC produce FW behaviour towards you (my own hardest task....it sends me back to the bad old days so fast!!) pull them up on it gently but firmly.
   
   
8. Make a point of checking how they are, what they think is going on from time to time...fantasies get woven around such small bits of info. reality checking is essential.
   
   Move on, keep going, you will be OK, so will they.