ex still trying to control me

[ninja]

I was in a relationship for 18 years (married 7 of those). Two children now 9 and 4.

21 months ago ex told me he was leaving but to be honest I'd come to that conclusion - he had been too horrible to me for too long and I could see how it was affecting the eldest - looking back I had seen this years before :( He said he would leave the house in 6 months time and in the meanwhile I would need to give him half the equity of the house and he would be having the children half of the time. I did have some savings and so managed to buy him out and I grieved over the children but thought as their dad it was his right to spend time with them. After 6 horrible months (and 2 holidays together) he finally left (I'd been sleeping ona matress on the floor of the spare room all this time even when the house was in my name. He also tried to persuade me not to tell anyone and I can't believe I didn't even tell my parents for a couple of months because of this. When I told him I was going to see them to tell them he tried to persuade me now to by saying how angry he'd be if I came back all argumentative.

For years he'd threaten to leave because of thing like me not shutting doors, I always felt that if I tried harder it would all be OK and so I'd make his meals, cups of tea, let him lie in (I don't think he ever got up with the kids, even when I was ill). I tried not to get annoyed when he'd go out to football 2 or 3 or 4 nights a week straight from work and come back in after midnight. Or the not so odd night he'd come in at 3 or 4 ...

A couple of weeks (or maybe less?) after he'd left the girls were continually talking about a woman who was spending a lot of time with them. I also had strongly suspected a few months before that he was seeing someone

sorry - to get to the point. Last year he was working 5 days, I work 3 and have DD2 the other 2 (always been one of the things he'd get at me about). I would do all the pickups and teas, even on 'his' nights with the kids and we had a complicated arrangement of nights. He didn't work for the first 3 months leaving (said he couldn't concentrate being at work when he had to sort out his house) and then took voluntary redundancy 6 months after that. All of that time he never offered to do pickups although I did ask him to sometimes if I had an event on at work - he calls this doing a favour for me

This year he's not working and sufddenly decided he wants DD2 one day a week (she's still not at school, and is at preschool 3 days) and to do the pick ups on his days. He's also being really difficult about weekends - he's happy to book 5 days away and miss a weekend but then want them most of the weekend before and after, but when I'm missing a weekend with them he won't agree that for me. He sends me insulting critical e-mails in response to my polite ones. I've tried to suggest we alternate weekends partly as this is what DD1 would like, and partly so we don't have to negotiate each one separately (and we don't have to communicate as much). He's said no to this. At the moment I have them every Friday and one of them every Saturday, so this is another reason to alternate.

This doesn't seem like much but every time he asks for something I tend to agree, when I do he makes it so difficult. If I want to go out Friday or Saturday I've had to negotiate with him and if he doesn't like something I say he'll just say'n' at the last moment. On several occasions I've had the kids at the last minute on his request. He's also always late which has caused problems for me and on occasions distress for the kids. Generally, though, he is a good Dad.

In addition I have evidence that he's trying to sabotage a holiday that I was trying to organise for the kids next summer. He shouts at me in front of them is has drawn DD1 into arguments.

We're going to mediation in the next few weeks to sort out things with the kisd. I'm half looking forward to it (I suggested it last year, but he said it was pointless as I was no good at negotiating) and half dreading having to be with him bullying me - can't believe in many ways I'm so strong.

Sorry - that's long enough

I just want to know when this all starts getting easier - I'm fine by myslef, cope practicall. Financially is hard but I'm getting there. Don't miss him although I miss the kids when they're with him. It's just all the insults and argueing. I just want the negotiations to be more straightforward. It's always going to be emotional trying to negotiate time with the kids, but it feels like I have to fight to make it fair. He jsut wants them on his terms (and then to be able to book a week away here and there when he fancies)

I don't want to dread the e-mails, to wonder what's happening next weekend. I don't want to worry about what he's saying to the kids.

I want to be able to get on with my life and this is taking up too much time and energy.

Any advice would be gratefully received

If you married an unreasonable man, he's not going to start being reasonable when you're apart. Once you realise that it gets a bit easier.

Short emails, never explain your actions/desires - ignore his pleads for you to be fair/reasonable etc - you are anyway, he generally isn't.

Never react to his taunts/accusations etc. Just very straightforward, short and unemotional replies even if he's been down-right nasty. Ignore it all. This is much more effective than penning smart replies...and it wastes less of your time. If you can't resist writing replies, write them and save them for yourself. Do not send the emotional version to him. Just facts. If you do this enough he'll get fed up with trying to wind you up cos it's fruitless. If you react, it encourages him.

Be clear, get agreements in writing (email) so you can send them back to him to remind him what he's agreed if necessary. Don't feel bad about 'caving in' but only agree to his requests/demands when it suits you/your kids.

If you've got arrangements made stick to them. I'd avoid mediation if you can...no point doing the nicey nicer thing with a bully. He will try to involve the kids in disagreements. Try not to row in front of them. Try not to row at all by insisting everything in email and by not using any emotional language in your emails. All business like, all facts - if it doesn't cover times, places for pick ups etc or serious medical/educational matters - then it's not relevant.

Well that's what I do anyway. If my ex tries to initiate a conversation I cut him off and say, can you send me an email.

Thanks for the replies - don't worry the kids will be going to the pantomime one way or another. So far we've exchanged over 50 e-mails about it and I'm standing my ground because what I've suggested is fair and what's rigt for the kids - but he feels somehow because I've asked for it I must compromise somehow.

How different from when he asked me for more time at the weekend and I just said 'yes fine'

sockreturningpixie good point about the mediator not taking sides, surely though they'll have ideas about what is best for th kids. Would they really stand there and watch me being bullied? I think, though, he may be slightly nicer with other people in the room.

Lovingfreedom everything is now by e-mail - I've learned that. In fact he also wants that (although expexts me to verbally agree things )

I've tried to keep my answers polite and business like - if I'm not sure I often run my e-mails past my neighbour for her to vet them. It's a good reminder though as it's difficult not to get drawn in.

nicknametaken I'm learning that about a plan B too

Thing is - he's good at all this. He's a mental health nurse and has done some counselling in the past. He can tie you up in knots in arguments and will accuse me of the very traits I think he has (being awkward, selfish, controlling...) until you don't know what the truth is

yes they will just sit there and watch, unfortunatly the whole point of mediation is to reach resolution.

often that means the bully bullies and the other party gives in. but its still called resolution

out of intrest what arguement is he giving against all dc's attending the panto?

Honestly, with such difficult person you'll probably be better off proposing something unreasonable and then negotiate down to reasonable.
Think of haggling.

You have already offered something reasonable, you can take back the offer because he has been so difficult.

The same with his requests. Be clear to him that if he's being difficult, you'll start sticking to whatever you have agreed so far and no mire flexibility.

My ex was like this. Bullying, nit picking twat of a man. The only thing that works is standing up to them. Eg he would demand I picked them up at a certain time. I just didn't, if he ranted I hung up, when I saw him I just spoke in jolly tones to the kids. He'd be seething trying to get me to engage and I'd just have very detailed Convos with dc as I bundled them into the car and away.

I did not respond to unpleasant text messages. You can tell from the first few words what they will be like, delete, text and tell him you have done this and will do so until he sends a non incendiary one.

All conversations took place on MSN as soon as he started I logged off.

He had issues about me taking MY children, to see MY family in MY time with them so I just stopped telling him. He'd find out after the event.

Read the first two lines of emails, if unpleasant delete immediately then email to tell him you have done so and he needs to resend one without abuse.

Your pantomime, I simply would not engage with him about it, or I would agree to everything and then on the day text him and say "change of plan THIS is happening now, will drop children off at (whatever time)" then turn phone OFF! What really is the worst that could happen?

I know how easy I make this sound. It took me 3 years! to get to this point. Once you start though you'll be amazed at how quickly it changed. I was terrified of my ex, he had been physically violent to me also but I managed to change the dynamic. We are quite amicable now. He occasionally likes to jack boot around and try to impose himself but it doesn't work anymore, I just done have that level of emotional involvement anymore. You CAN do this. Like I said you'll be surprised at how quickly it changes, you just have to take the bull by the horns a couple of times.

Lueji he had agreed to me taking them to the panto (and there really should be no debate anyway as it should be my night with them) but because he 'agreed' he said he wanted them Friday night and Saturday until after lunch - which is my time with the kids - also means I wouln't get to spend the with my family as I had planned, I've made plans with the kids Friday night etc.

Becuase I disagreed with his there he's taking back his permission for them to go.

Some weekends we've had one kid each on nthe Saturday and now he says that's the norm (except when it doesn't suit him) ...

akaemmafrost I'm really tempted to just to agree with him and then as you say tell him that we're going with my plan anyway. I have already said if he wants to have just one kid on the Sat night he can pick that kid up from my sisters.

I actually think he will back down on this but it will have taken hours of my time and energy when I should have been working (and now have to catch up tonight). He took voluntary redundancy earlier in the year and so has the time to waste annoying me. I just wish he'd go back to work.

The thing is apart from annoying me I suspect he's worried I might go after him for money if he doesn't have them half the time -I wouoldn't. I just want my sanity back

I think you have clearly started on the wrong foot.

Why would you ask to take them to panto even? You do what you want in your own time. Just as long as you're not abusing them, you don't need his agreement.
My ex is informed of major things. Such as when DS is ill, or when we go on holiday (because he has to phone instead of Skype), and major after school activities.

And why would you agree to having the children separated? Make clear any arrangements are on offs.

Making a rod for your own back, really. Sorry.

And definitely ignore confrontational e-mails.

It's a bit like disciplining children. If you try to go down the easy road it actually becomes more difficult. You have to be firm and bad behaviour should have consequences.

Agree with Lueji - you make the decisions and take full responsibility for parenting when they are with you now...I find very few decisions need a discussion between the two of you. My ex finds out after the event or before the event...never from me. I am confident that I'm making the right judgements for the DCs and I don't interfere in what he does with them when they are with him either. My ex did try the 'oh can you get them to bed early' or 'they are having too many sleepovers' or 'make sure they get to this place or that place' and suggested that i should change my working hours etc.... I ignored him and negotiated directly with the kids for what we do on 'my days'. It's not up to him.

Thing is Luigi sometimes we've been having one each on a Saturday plus it means a later time to swap over on the Sunday as it's 1.5 hours drive away. I didn't realise it would be an issue as his requests to me haven't been.

Last year there didn't seem to be so many changes to the pattren but since September no 2 weekends have been the same.

We have the kids separately sometimes as there's a 5 year age gap and the eldest has definitely been affected more by bthe separation and likes to have one of us to herself without her nnoying little sister around. It does work - just not every week

You say bad behaviour should have consequences - well it feels like that's what he's doing to me! If I disagree with his I'm punished. That's the thing - I get the advice but he's doing all these things.

THIS is why I'm fighting for alternate weekends so we don't have to negotiate at all, and don't have to see each other if possible!

Sounds like the current arrangement is a bit too complicated and involves lots of negotiation and discussion. Better to have something more fixed, even if it then restricts what you can do. I found that my ex tried it on a lot for a while. Now he's realised that I've virtually bomb-proofed myself against his nastiness he seems to be being much more 'reasonable' she says tentatively .

A tip that I've used on occasion and I'm not proud of.. but it seems to work is to play a bit dumb. Especially with long aggressive emails I say 'Sounds complicated, can we just agree - me days A,B,C drop off at 4pm on day D; you days X, Y, Z kids go to yours straight from school on P'....that kind of thing. Drives ex mad...cos he likes long essays about why I'm so unreasonable and what he is entitled to and how unfair everything is. 'I'm not sure what you're getting at here ....the dentist appointment is at 3pm so they'll be back with you at 4.30pm. Please can you remind A to take his guitar'. I just set out what I want to happen (it's always reasonable).

It's worth remembering that these guys often want to be right or to win or to mess something up for you, more than they actually want whatever they are asking for. Train yourself not to try to win arguments with him, you don't react to his attacks and you don't let him see that he's getting to you at all. It takes time to perfect this...but is effective.

The other thing to remember is that if you have the kids you can bring them back when you like. ok it's not good for anyone if you renege on an agreement. But basically, if you say 'the panto finishes at 9pm, I'll have the kids with you for 11.30pm' what can he do? He's not going to drive to the theatre and pull them out of their seats. If he says it's not convenient say, 'Oh I agree it's a bit of a late switchover, prob best then if I drop them with you first thing the following morning instead' that kind of thing?

And lastly...as long as he agrees to it, or doesn't actually stop it happening, who cares if he's happy. If he's anything like my ex, these guys are never happy, so why waste your time. For example, if he's understood the arrangements for the panto, but he's making an issue out of it, ignore the issues...just say 'thanks, that's great then, see you at 11.30pm' or whatever.

Lovingfreedom, I do enjoy your posts!

Thanks NT

Ninja, I read your post and I could have written it myself. My ex is also a Mh nurse and controlling, and boy are they good at playing mind games..

What you have to do is not give them the opportunity to control you. What I do now is reply and be straight to the point via text only, that way it's short. And if he txts something I don't like I ignore it. It's hard though.

I know it's difficult when you have children involved.

What you said re buying him out of the house, was that done legally through a lawyer?

My ex still tries to control me. I would be divorced but he deliberately rejected everything, and the legal bills mounted up! He refused to go to mediation... It's all about control.

Lovingfreedon Nickname taken is right - that's a good straightforwrad post :) I'm sure that I posted last night but it doesn't seem to have worked - I was tired though.

The house went through a solicitor and is now legally in my name with a record of what I've paid him :)

Loving freedom I think I need you to coach me dealing with my ex!