Trouble with my Mum (again...) v long, sorry

[IncogKNEEto]

Name changed for this, just in case it's stumbled across. This is very long (sorry) but I wanted to include the whole conversation so as not to drip feed. I would really appreciate others opinions as I am struggling with this at the moment. I have had a very rocky relationship with my Mum since I was a child, and am realising that maybe it's not just because I am 'difficult', and that maybe she is toxic Since this exchange we haven't spoken, and I feel relieved, I feel sad and guilty too, especially as it's her birthday today, but my overwhelming feeling is of a weight lifted off my shoulders

Mum,

I have decided to email this, so that I can say what I need to say without getting side-tracked or emotional about it, and so that you have time to digest what I'm saying and your response to it.

I have been thinking since we spoke yesterday and I have a few things that I want to say. Firstly, I want to say thank you for all the help and support you have given me during my recent separation from dh. I really appreciate that you have made time to help me with the kids and to listen to me talk (rant!) about things.

I have spent a long time thinking about mine and dh?s relationship, where I feel we went wrong, and whether or not I truly want to be with him. I appreciate that you may have concerns (grave or otherwise) that we might not be able to work things out and that you only have my best interests at heart.

I am happy. Since we have been talking, openly and honestly, for the first time in years, I feel as though we can solve our differences and that this is the right thing for us to do. I love dh, he loves me, we both meant our marriage vows, and believe that we owe it to ourselves, each other, and our children to do our very best to work things out between us. It is not a decision that either of us have entered into lightly.

I would love it if you would trust me as an adult to make my own decisions and to be pleased, for me, that I am happy with my decision to reconcile with dh. This is after all my decision to make; it is my life, my husband and my choice.

Dh is making every effort to make me and the children happy, and is entering back into our relationship with positive intentions for our future together, as am I. I don't believe that dh has anything to 'prove' to you, he is an adult and is not answerable to you, his mother-in-law. I expect him to treat you with courtesy and respect, and vice versa. I am not asking you to become 'best buddies', or even agree with my decision to give him another chance, but it is my decision.

You mentioned when we were talking about dh seeing his Mum this weekend that you wouldn't ever do what she did and put me in the position of having to choose sides between my husband and my Mum, and then did exactly that when you said that you didn?t want dh to come out with us all on the 3rd November.

I feel very uncomfortable with being put in the position of having to tell dh that he is not welcome, or upsetting you by saying that none of us will be coming if he is made to feel unwelcome. I don't even know yet whether he is working that Saturday, but if not, why would you want to make me choose? Is your desire to punish him stronger than your desire to see me and the children happy? We are a family, and whilst I appreciate things have been difficult and awkward in the past, the past is the past and we are moving forward from it, learning from our mistakes and concentrating on building a better, stronger future. I would appreciate it if you would try to do the same.

Well, that was longer than I planned! I hope it makes sense, let me know what you think when you've had a chance to think about it.

Love xxx

Her reply

I have a couple of things to say about this.
I obviously want you and the children to be happy and emotionally secure in the long term and that is and always has been my main and over-riding concern. If that turns out to be with xxx and he makes you all happy again then I will be very glad and obviously would want him to be accepted back into the family.

When I was trying to ring you this morning I was going to say that if xxx really wanted to come to my birthday outing then I wouldn't say no although I would really rather it not be the first time we see him after all that has happened. I don't think he would expect to be invited anyway. None of us could really relax and it is after all my birthday outing and he has never wanted to come to one before. I would like to enjoy it and not have to be on tenterhooks lest I say the wrong thing.

I don't see that this was making you choose between us at all. When we made the original arrangement xxx was not included because at that point, if I remember right, so far as we knew, he was still incommunicado and pretty much reviled and the last person on earth you would have wanted there. I seem to recall that the last contact from you to him had included a lot of words beginning with F and you felt much better for having sent it. You've changed your mind very recently and are now saying the complete opposite. As you say you are an adult and capable of making your own decisions. As an adult you should also understand that all of us have a right to that too and to time to make our own minds up. There is no reason why just because you and xxx have decided to get back together we should somehow just be expected to include him immediately because you say so. And I can't believe you would threaten me with not allowing the children to come. That is pretty low, especially after our conversation yesterday. I know you are on a high about you and xxx and want everything to be rosy, but a little bit of consideration and respect for our feelings as opposed to just xxx's would not go amiss.

You seem to be convinced he has changed and all will be well, and hopefully that is true, but I (and am sure your brother too) remain to be convinced. All of us have only your and the childrens' best interests at heart and it is insulting of you to imply that any of what I have said has got anything to do with punishing xxx.

If he has really changed as you say he has then I am sure that he will understand my feelings and want to prove he has changed and both of us should not be worried about telling him what I have said. I would say exactly the same to his face if I had the chance as I am sure he already realises. It worries me that you feel you have to go to such lengths to protect his feelings about this. If you want things to move forward then I really think you should forward both these emails to him and see what he has to say himself about it. I actually don't think he will argue with much of what I've said. Maybe he and I should get together for a chat sometime soon and he can tell me himself.

Mum
X

And my reply

Dh and I have discussed the emails.

He had no intention of attending your birthday celebration (even if he was not working). He is aware of your feelings towards him and they are reciprocated, so we think this is for the best.

See you tomorrow.

X

Her final message

Oh dear - luckily I have cancelled it anyway. Can't believe it could cause so much hassle and it just isn't worth it. I wouldn't be able to enjoy it anyway, not now.

I replied

Ok, if that's what you want to do, it's your decision.

I just don't know where to go from here. Thank you if you've managed to get this far I just feel so furious and feel like I'm being manipulated (again) and I have no desire to see or speak to her atm, but am I overreacting?

why did you dh leave?

I have to say I sort of agree with your mum about this one.

This was all arranged before you and he decided to get back together and you were threatening to keep her grand children away from her birthday.

I would have been upset and maybe cancelled mine if the grand children were a big part of it for me.

stiff I wanted her support, but (as always) it came at a price, she used any conversations about my situation to reiterate her hatred of my Dad and dh, and I realised quite quickly it was a bad idea to confide in her...in fact in my first email I included the thanks for help/support to try and placate her before I said how I felt about the other stuff.

oldboot it was a variety of reasons really, mostly caused by a breakdown in communication and built up resentment, me because he was miserable and negative and him because he felt that I wanted to change him fundamentally as a person, and generally day to day life got in the way. I asked him to leave because I couldn't see how wecould sort it out how we were, but we are working on the issues together now, and so far it's going well

cakes this snapshot probably doesn't give a balanced view, as it doesn't take into account the backstory.

I'm probably already sensitive because my brother and I tried to arrange a meal for us, my mum and all the kids at his house prior to this, as she had said she just wanted us all to get together with kids etc, and she went absolutely mad at me because we were arranging things behind her back, it was her birthday and we could arrange things for her when she was old and infirm with Alzheimer's etc etc I had a long tearful tirade about how we never respect her feelings and always exclude her from any plans, how just because she's on her own we expect her to fit in around us (and our five kids) and to be honest that annoyed me as we were only trying to do something nice that we thought she wanted for her birthday, but no it was wrong (again).

I seem to spend my life vending over backwards to accommodate her feelings, whims and sudden changes of heart an I've had enough now

I have to agree with the majority here, I don't see any toxicity in her emails, but I do see some rudeness on your part, and your replies to her seem a bit childish tbh.

In this instance there is no toxicity in your mothers posts.
But there is a lot of rudeness and assumption on your part IMO.
If your mother is so very toxic then panning a surprise party/meal was perhaps not the best idea?
I hope you and your dh sort things out. Wrt your mother, have you had counselling?

Incognito I've tried to msg you but it's not working. Can you try me?

I absolutely see manipulation.
Back the hell away from her.
Limit contact and take charge of your life if you feel strong enough.
The reason I see toxicity? I feel your frustration and bewilderment. It is tangible. The others who don't see this have normal relationships with their mothers. Lucky them.
I could sense it big time.
Good luck.

weegie I have pm'd you.

badvoc it wasn't a surprise party/meal, I had asked her what she wanted to do for her birthday and she said 'just get all of us together, with the kids' so that's what DB and I tried to arrange (DB can be hard to pin down, as he works a lot, away from home, so we need to try and arrange around when he's at home).

I have already had some counselling in the past, and more recently cbt centred around around improving my low self esteem and my tendency towards people pleasing at the expense of my own happines, during this scarily quite a lot of stuff from my childhood came up (unexpectedly for me, I just thought I was awkward and difficult and that's why my Mum appears to dislike me)

tupenny that's how I feel sadly, but have realised that this is affecting my children, both by how I relate to them, and by the way my Mum treats them too, she seems to act in a (strict, scathing, sarcastic, blaming and labelling way) which is how she was with me (and to a certain extent, still is).

I am not going to let my children be treated like this any more, I would love it if my Mum would be like she is with my brother's children, but she isn't

Hmmm, on the one hand, I think your mother (or anyone else for that matter) has a right to decide who she'd like to invite to her own birthday.

On the other hand, I don't think it was fair for her to drag your brothers (alleged) views in to back up her own - but hey, that's families for you!

You have a reconciliation with your husband at present, but that may not be permanent, and you may require your mothers' support again in the future: don't burn your bridges.

Although you and your husband are the primary players here, I think parents and relatives and friends also have feelings which can be hurt when relationships go wrong - and unfortunately, not all of us recover at the same speed! Your Mum may just take longer to recover from whatever it is that went on between you and your husband, and as long as she isn't excluding him from obvious family stuff like Xmas, then I think perhaps best to allow her time.

Her response sounds all reasonable except from 'her last reply' - i read and thought WTF? I dont understand - she has cancelled what? Your DH's place at her party? Or the party itself? What is she on about in that last message, honestly i cannot understand it. Am i the only one?..

yabu a bit. It's the poor woman's birthday, not the latest stage set for you and your romantic troubles.

I hope she arranges a nice treat instead, maybe with friends.

I hope you calm down a bit now you are reconciled with DH and let this blow over. Get her a belated birthday present (not carnations, something thoughtful) and both you and DH and your DCs sign the card.

Your mothers email is perfectly logical and fair. She also does have the right to re-enter a relationship with your DH with caution following supporting you through what had clearly been a big motional upheaval for you and therefore for her.

My advice would be to keep your mum out of it next time you have a fall out

And in terms of her birthday you were definitely being unreasonable....

The point is that if the relationship is flawed and unequal every single encounter is fraught and difficult. I could just feel that. I get that it sounds bratty to those without this dysfunction though. To that end OP you're better off posting in Stately Homes.
Now you're getting that she hurts you you can mice forward. Stop allowing her to effect you so much. Put up a barrier. Keep contact to a minimum. You'll get there. I have.

Move rather than mice because that would just be weird

Thanks for all your messages, I am going to take some time to consider my choices and feelings. I'm going to read some more of the stately homes thread, as I can identify with a lot of the feelings and happenings there.

I know I sound childish and unpleasant, tbh I seem to morph into that sulky powerless teenager whenever I interact with my Mum and I need to work out how I can stop letting it affect me so much, and come to terms with it and move on from it.

I have never 'slagged off' dh to my Mum, I have told her when I've been cross/upset but realised quite quickly that this was a bad idea!

I feel sorry for your mum, having read the exchange.

It sounds like she offered you a lot of support during the breakup in which you did clearly convey outright hostility towards your husband (" the last contact from you to him had included a lot of words beginning with F and you felt much better for having sent it")

Then you get back together again with DH and expect your mum to fall into line.

When you feel she has not done this, you email her about it

She seems to answer your email with care as to your feelings along with explaining hers to you.

You then discuss this email with your DH

This was not fair, it was down right manipulative in my opinion.

Be honest with yourself about your own conduct rather than blaming your mother.

I have told my daughters not to tell me when they have a row with their boyfriends/husbands because they might forgive them but I never will. Ever.

Your mum obviously loves you - even if she's been a nightmare all of your life - and she's trying to put her feelings of rage (towards the man who has hurt her baby) to one side and move on. I sure as Hell wouldn't be spending my birthday with a bloke who'd made my daughter cry!!

I get that you have a tricky relationship with your mum - I do too she drives me completely mental just by being in the same room as me but I guess you can't have it both ways. You either keep an emotional distance and don't lean on her when the chips are down or you let her into your world and risk her disagreeing with your decisions. How you react to her criticism is up to you - you could just try to shrug it off, rather than getting livid that she's dared to voice an alternative opinion.

I really hope that you can work this out. I think your relationship with your mum is worth saving.

captain it was at her suggestion that I discussed the emails with dh, the F the F off was one text message that I sent dh one day when v cross, which I later apologised for.

almost I am going to try and shrug stuff off (it seems to work for DB) and I plan on keeping some emotional distance in future. I accept that she will have differing opinions to me, and will try and see it more from her point of view in future.

your mum sounds in a tricky situation here, you tell her your dh has been a cock you have broken up and then you take him back and want everyone to except him back in to the fold so to speak. you family are of course going to be a bit hesitant at this especially if they saw you at really low points. also if you were confiding in your mother in a way you hadn't for a while and are now perhaps being a bit more distant again that might cause some relationship confusion. her reply imho seems fair and how i would prob feel in the situation. saying you dh feels the same about her is just a bit mean tbh. her cancelling the whole thing is an over reaction but she may as she said have felt the whole thing had caused to much hassle and preferred the quiet life.

for the love of god stay off the Stately Homes thread!