Entitled sister, enabling mother, father and the rest of us at wits end!

[FoxtrotFoxtrotSierra]

I've whinged written about my younger sister before - mainly her inability to put her hand in her pocket - but I'm getting really fed up with her behaviour, as is my older sister, and I have no idea what I can do to make it better. Does anyone know how to deal with a nearly 32-year-old who acts like a spoiled teen when one parent seems to not be able to put a stop to it?

To try to make a long story short - she's 32 soon and has been living at home since she graduated 10 years ago, aside from a small disaster when she tried to move out. In this time at home she hasn't contributed to the household, and has managed to rack up tens of thousands of pounds of debt - to any/everyone including my parents, the bank and HMRC. My parents are due to retire soon and DF wants to move to the coast. Sister shows no intention of moving out/being independent so this is scuppering his retirement plans (hell, he's only worked his entire life to finally have time to do what he wants, why should he get his own way?) DM is enabling this by pandering to DSis - she says we can't ask her to leave etc and won't parent her. It's very frustrating.

She seems incapable of holding down a job. In her past 5 jobs she has failed probation and had to leave, been put on poor performance and quit in a huff and been fired three times. The story put forward by her and DM is that she's too intelligent for the roles she's doing though privately DM now admits that she is the common denominator for these jobs and maybe it might have something to do with her.

She's like a teenager - her room is fetid, she needs to be reminded to wash, she reads teenage books and watches teenage programmes/films. Now we all love a chick flick, but not exclusively! These things point to me that she hasn't grown up since her early teens.

She lies constantly, either for attention or because she was caught out. It varies in seriousness from saying she has done the hoovering, to saying DF was dying from cancer. When challenged about these lies she'll deny all, in spite of evidence and DM will step in defend her and say we have to trust her.

Last year she stole £700 from DF, admitted to £200 (moron) and the only sanction was she had to pay it back.

Now she's really acting the teen - she's throwing parties when my parents are away, lying before they happen, lying when she gets caught out with photos on Facebook and my older sister and I are getting blamed for stirring when we point out the lies!

I saw DF last week and he said to me that she will never move out, so he thinks he is going to have to pack a bag and leave. He said he tries to parent her but she runs to DM and then the two of him side against her (he even gets stick for asking her to tidy up or similar). It broke my heart to hear him talk that way as he isn't prone to histrionics or ultimatums and I don't know what to do. Obviously I'll welcome him to my home if he needs somewhere to go, but I would rather help him and DM to sort things out before it gets to that point. The other thing that worries me is that my parents aren't getting any younger, and one day they won't be here to support DSis. What do we do then?

Sorry it's long, if you've got this far can you advise on what I might do?

It sounds like your DM is frightened of her - of her moods, tantrums and threats. I'm really not sure what you can do if that is the case. Maybe your DF threatening to leave will shock your DM into positive action?

The catalyst is your Mum. Is there anyone else who could speak to her about this - a sister, cousin, good friend, GP even?

I also think your df should leave.

Does your DM really understand how your DF feels about this? Maybe you could suggest that your parents go and talk to a counsellor together so that your DM 'gets' that your DF is not just having a moan, but is actually at the end of his tether, and that this situation could end in separation or divorce.

If your mother is resistant to this idea, then you and your sister should talk to her and explain that your DF could actually walk out if they can't sort it out. That might shock her into agreeing.

I think all that you can do logistically is to support your Dad.

I think you all need to sit down with you DM and tell her clearly that your DF is at the end of his tether and if things don't change he will leave.

He really should leave too. Your DM needs the big shock.

I agree with ICutMyFoot. And look into whether your sister could get assessed, to see if she has a mental health problems or learning difficulties: obviously we can't diagnose her online, but for example ADHD in adults can lead to risk taking, disorganisation, work and financial difficulties.

I would say that it needs an ultimatum from your father, perhaps issued from a hotel, far, far away. Either the sister leaves, or I don't come back. Would he have money to rent a one bedroomed flat near the sea so he looks serious? He could invite your Mum to stay / visit. If your sister then refuses to leave then they could begin to evict her. Crucially, it needs to have one bedroom. Sounds like an awful situation. Can you get support from her GP?

If your parents want to stay together, would your DSis move to the coast with them, assuming your Dad would accept that?

You mention that she graduated...did she go away to university? Would her degree help her towards a decent job?Is there any post grad qualification she could take?
I wouldn't talk to your parents I would try to confront your sister [you and other dsis] and spell it out including the fact that she is driving your df to leave in despair.

Rose I like your reasoning. DH and I could certainly rent something for DH (and he could rent one himself if he weren't scared of spending money) and show the consequences rather than talk about them.

MMMarmite - I suggested this in the past but I'm afraid that everyone is too scared to find out there is something wrong. That said, plenty of adults with MH issues or learning difficulties live fairly independently and they'd get plenty of support in setting her up in her own flat. The risk taking really rings true, some of the stuff she does is in such disregard for her safety and health.

As it is presented DF won't have DSis move with them. I expect there will be a drama and she'll have to move in with them, just like last time. I think DM won't want her there either - I remember that when DSis moved out before the whole family, but particularly my parents, got on better together until it turned out that she'd pleaded poverty to DM, got thousands and spent it on cocktails and manicures

She has a PGCE already, but after three years in schools she failed her NQT so it's meaningless. Her current plan is to go back to university but with her debts she won't be able to do that without help - and she's applying to universities close to home so she doesn't have to move out. Last time she was 20 minutes from home, in hall for all four years and was given a car by DM & DF (older sister and I had nothing like this) so she was home at least once a week to do washing or "shop" from the fridge.

Might there have been some sort of trauma mid-teens that triggered this behaviour, or arrested her development?

If your dm and gm have form for similar behaviour, however, it sounds like there's going to be little will to help change things from them.

I am no expert but Dsis sounds to me like she has Borderline Personality Disorder. Google it when you get a moment and see if you recognise any of the symptoms/traits in your sister. Good luck as it sounds an awful situation.

Sounds like a mental health issue. Surely there must be some kind of help you can get with this. The fetid room etc sounds like depression. Did something happen to her that made her go funny/

clam - that's something we've often pondered. Older DSis and I can't for the life of us think of anything that happened - and I'd imagine if something big had happened there would have been something noticeable. I've also asked her and she said nothing happened at all.

I don't doubt that there are mental health issues, but she seems not to want to seek help aside from be put on ADs so she has a "badge" or something. She tells such lies that I doubt therapy would help her much - she'd try to find the right answer for the therapist rather than tell the truth, or she would give superficial responses rather than the difficult, honest-to-yourself kind of responses you need.

I'm not sure that the fetid room is depression tbh - it has always been that way, just like a teenager. She just doesn't seem to notice/care/think there is anything wrong with it. I know that sounds like she is depressed, but if she goes away (she went on a long haul all inclusive holiday this year in spite of owing all the money she does) and is asked if she has left her room tidy she says she has and has tidied it how a child/young teen does - shoved the dirty washing into the wardrobe and slammed the door, and shoved everything else under the bed.

I know it sounds like I'm being very down on her - I am, but it's a situation that has gone on for over 10 years now and I'm very drained. I'm often asked for help with her financial situation (it's what I used to do for a living) which then gets ignored and when she ends up in trouble again I am asked again, give the same advice and am ignored again. It's highly frustrating.

I think you need to basically scare your Mum a little as to the harsh realities of what her own life is likely to look like post divorce. (Her current home would sold for starters, lower pension without your father's income etc). I get the feeling she's a little afraid of rocking the boat with your sister & that sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.

Your Dad isn't being left with many alternatives, and to be fair I doubt he wants his youngest to stay in the same utterly dependent state once he's passed on. Every parent needs to know their child can cope in the world once they are no longer there iykwim. The emotional strain on him, not having this peace of mind must be huge.

I'm normally all for mature students, but that's assuming they have the adult life skills we take for granted to enable them to really utilise the additional book learning in the real world. Your sister lacks the usual adult life skills & needs to develop these as a matter of urgency, not be allowed to regress into the 18 year old "student experience".

She needs to show she can hold down a job, ANY job for a year or two or the costs of further high-level training will just be more money down the drain if she can't/won't turn up for work on time etc.

Starting at the bottom in shop work can lead to a career in retail management IF she can prove she's reliable and while not brilliantly paid, it pays a damn sight more than jobseekers.

...your sister isn't Tracey Barlow is she? I kid. Unfortunately I can't offer you any advice, but your certainly have my sympathies. I can't imagine how bloody frustrating it must be-I feel frustrated for you!!! xxx

Foxtrot

All you can personally do Foxtrot is detach completely from all of them and
watch this emotional car crash from afar.

Its no point in talking to your mother or even your Dad further about all this as your counsel is simply ignored. They simply do not want to know or see what is really happening in front of their eyes. They as well as your sister are responsible for the mess your sister is in; they created this mess too.

Your Dad is drawing you into this dysfunction by telling you stuff so he is not blameless in all this either; he needs to either shape up or ship out. I do not think for what it is worth that he will actually leave because he gets something out of this dysfunctional relationship.

Read up on codependency (there's your sister and mother there in a nutshell)and drama triangle and you will have more insight into this whole dysfunctional set up.

FWIW my ILs have a 50 year old manchild sponging off them and the codependency is all too apparant there as well.

I would also read up on narcissistic personality disorder (they can and do tell huge lies) and see if any of that fits the pattern of your sister's behaviours.

My DH has a similar adult leech DD. She has ADD but a lot of her behaviour isn't related to her condition - she's just a very strange person. She has no social life and can't hold down a job. DH left as he was so unhappy with being treated like rubbish by his children and ex. He met me a few years later.

The problem is that your parents are enabling your sister to remain a dependant child which only they can change. I think your DF should leave even if it just to get a few weeks of peace.

I agree with HotDAMNlifeisgood and AttilaTheMeerkat. I think you should leave them all to it. The best thing your Dad could do is to leave them to it as well but that's up to him.

You're not going to be able to change their situation so let them have the drama on their own.

I don't mean to be harsh saying this. We've had various dramas in my family and it really got me down. I was having some acupuncture to help me cope with stress (brought on my family) and the acupuncturist recommended I reduce my contact with my family. At first I was outraged that he'd suggested this but I gave it a go anyway and it has really helped me. My family has continued in the same pattern but they were going to do that no matter how much involvement I had with them. I'm not saying to cut yourself off, just take a step back, realise you can't change them and enjoy your own life.

I agree with leave them to it too. The fact is, being a listening ear can be damaging: people off-load on you, and the short-term catharsis helps them to keep going. They never get to crisis point (because they come to you to vent and be calmed down) and they so never change anything.

These three (any one of them) have to get to a point where they want to change things enough to put up with the short to medium term pain, disruption and uncertainty. They may never get there, but at least by disengaging you will have saved yourself endless frustration.

It's clear that your mother won't listen to either you or your sister and will just react defensively due to past history. Is there are relative - an aunt or similar - who can intercede?

What would happen if your DF moved out on his own ? Would DM be able to cope financially ? Would she likely choose to provide a home for your Dsis and let your DF leave ?

It sounds like your DF has come to that point - the question is - what would your DM do ? Would your DF be able to stand firm and say Dsis is no longer living at my expense in my house ? Is that what he wants to do ?

I have to say that I don't think a sudden surprise move out by your DF to a hotel is the way to go. Even is she wanted to it would probably be hard for your DSis to get a place sorted in a matter of days particularly if she doesn't have a job.

If you were to follow the advice of some to disengage and take a step back, I'd write a letter to all of them (in three copies) first, telling them what you've told us, how dysfunctional they are being, how damaging it is to all of them and how you can't cope with it any longer. Put into words your analysis and fears for the future, let the points sink in.
Spoken words have less weight than a written letter and they can re-read it when ever they need to. Then disengage.
Good luck!