My DSis and DM - v,v long but I'm begging you for some help as we're stuck.

[BionicEmu]

I have no idea where the right place to post this is. I guess it's about the relationship between me, my mother and my sister, so it is about relationships, but not about my relationship with my DH (that'd be a whole other thread if I ever get up the courage to face it.) This is very, very long. I apologize for the length, but couldn't think of a way to phrase it all without inlcluding the back-story. And I guess it's more a problem with a situation rather than a question, so that doesn't help with the length!

My sister is 24. She moved out when she was 19, got a job in a pub and lived in the flat above all free of charge. So she was earning full-time minimum wage, and only paying out for council tax (about £70 a month). Even then she would call my mother up begging her for money for food. She somehow got a credit card with a £3500 limit, and my parents have paid that off for her twice.

Fast forward a few years, and the pub shut down so my sister was being made homeless. She moved back in with my parents, who in the meantime had moved cities (say, they all used to live in Birmingham but now in Manchester). For the first few months my sister didn't work, but refused to claim JSA. So she just moped around the house cadging money off of my parents for everything. My mum got her a job a few months ago, working in an office, full-time at around minimum wage. So she is now earning about £900 a month. She refuses to pay any money to parents for board. She has usually run out of money 2 weeks after pay day. The only things she seems to spend her money on is alcohol and cigarettes. She doesn't do clothes shopping(when she moved back in with my parents my mum spent a week trying to get the stains out of her clothes and repairing all the rips. She even bought her work clothes as she had nothing even vaguely respectable.) so it really seems that all her money goes on alcohol and fags, although I cannot see how that's possible.

I am sure she has a problem with alcohol, she can't go a day without drinking. The other week I was up there visiting my parents with my DS, and she had 2 pints of cider before going out to work (she was working an afternoon/evening shift).

The thing is, my sister's attitude towards my parents is disgusting. She does nothing but scream at them and blame them for her "crap life". She goes out drinking every night and expects my dad to go and pick her up. FGS, he works full-time himself, he shouldn't have to go out at 3am every morning just to pick her up. On the very rare occasion that she gets a different lift home, if it's the weekend and my dad is still up, she will rage at him "What are you still doing up? You should be in bed by now! Great, now I can't do anything because you're still up."

My mother is retired and ends up driving her to and from work every day. It's only a 30 minute bus ride but my sister refuses. Mum says if she doesn't drive her then she just won't go to work, so she'll lose her job. If mum tries to have a conversation with her, she just screams at her.

The real problem is that my sister claims she's miserable and has no friends (so who are all those people in the photos up on FB laughing with you then?). She for some reason blames my parents for her not being in Birmingham any more. Any time my parents try to talk to her about sorting herself out, she just says "I can't do anything when all I can think about is throwing myself under a bus." So she has my parents over a barrel. They're scared to do or say anything to upset her in case she kills herself. Meanwhile she lives the life of bloody Riley, not caring about anybody but herself.

I've suggested to my parents that they give her an ultimatum - buck up your attitude, start paying board and lodgings and act like an actual grown-up. But they won't, because she just threatens to kill herself. I've suggested they just stop giving her lifts everywhere, but again, they're scared of the repercussions.

My mum is retired, and my dad is about to be. They cannot afford to support her any more. Over the last 5 years they have given her over £50k. Yes, really, we sat down with their bank accounts and worked it out. That was supposed to be their retirement, but it's gone. Additionally, they should be spending their retirement pottering about in the garden and playing with their grandchildren (my children), not tiptoeing around my sister, worrying about money and being so stressed by it all that it brings on migraines.

So please, please I am begging anybody who has read this far, please help. What is the way forward? Is there any advice? Or thoughts?

It's interesting that you thought borderline personality disorder Ginga, I thought exactly the same thing. I think it's called emotionally unstable disorder now. OP, look it up, it explains the lot of your sister's behaviour. She seems textbook.

So hard for you OP. I agree with the posters saying step away and make it clear to your parents you are doing so.

Is there any chance you could ( whilst accepting they won't take on board immediately) give them info from al-anon (family stuff) or any written literature which would explain to them the dynamic they are in

I'd want them to see that my actions were not just because I'd had enough (although that would be a valid reason) but because their behaviour is actually making things worse. I'm imaging this situation with my mother.. no way would she accept that, because she would need to rescue + the obvious emotional blackmail of suicide. However it would sow a seed and when they get desperate enough it might germinate.

I'd also add I'm really concerned about you two.....this needs to stop

Recommend professional advice and couch it as 'what your sister deserves' because she does need help

It is apparant from your last conversation with your mother that she is completely mired in both denial and codependency and she is also getting something out of being "needed" by your sister (along the lines of what Ginga wrote towards the end of her recent post). Your mother has also done emotional blackmail on you; for that alone I'd be walking away now.

My MIL is the same - she feels more "important" and "needed" because of her son; she would never accept or even want to acknowledge that her and her Hs behaviours have also contributed to the overall dysfunction.

I would read up on codependency and alcoholism for your own self but would not give them any such literature; it would be ignored by them anyway as they are stuck in this dynamic. They are all part of this drama triangle and are all happy for this to continue; they are all getting something out of it.

The only thing you can really do here is to completely step away and watch the emotional carnage from afar.

Agree Attila - it IS a drama triangle Persecutor, Rescuer and Victim (TA theory?) and the people are as you say deeply entrenched within it and have no perception of this themselves, and anyone coming in from "outside" the drama triangle is a threat. Hmm we humans are supposed to be the higher form of animal life - I sometimes wonder.

Hope you can stickby your guns OP as it could mean losing the r/ship with your mother, but she is never going to understand what you are saying, and this situation will carry on until your parents die. Sorry but it's true.

I do find it ironic that one of the problems mum has with my sister is that she uses emotional blackmail, but there mum herself has tried to use it on me.

I left it by saying that my position is simply that if the day comes when my sister admits that she has a problem then of course I will be there to support her through recovery. Until that day comes there's nothing to support anyway.

Mum just keeps going on and on about how she needs my support in this, sister is getting better, and then all the emotive crap about denying my son an aunt etc. Apparently she supported me through my issues so I should help her to support my sister. Well, I've just read the summary of my mental health records, starting from when I was 13, and the recurring theme is that my mother was uncooperative, unsupportive of the professionals and downright obstructive at times. I was led to believe by her that social services became involved because I wasn't trying hard enough to get better, when they were actually involved due to her attitude and actions. So I'm sticking to my position though. I think they're as bad as each other.

As naive as I know this sounds, I think it's just taking me a while to get my head around the fact that my mother is just wrong. She was always this big, imposing and successful businesswoman, who took no crap from anybody (I know, it's a cliche.) But in this, she really is just wrong.

I really, really want a relationship with mum. But on reflection I guess it's her doing, not mine, so there's nothing I can do about it? I think the fact that she chose to drive my sister to work instead of coming to be with me when I was terrified due to there being a concern I.was in very pre-term labour says it all really.

Thankyou all so much for your input. It's really helping to try and get this all straight in my mind.

What a shame for you, but sometimes, when people are on self-destruct as your sister is, you have to simply step out of their way or they'll take you (and your family ) down with them. It is sad, but there's no point in you expending lots of energy on them, it won't help and you need to keep yourself functioning nicely. Distancing yourself is the only way I think.

It sounds to me like you probably should be putting some distance in your relationship with your mother too as it seems like quite a toxic mix, and you really shoudl be concentrating on your own physical and mental health. Your mother wasn't there for you when you needed her when you were a child and she doesn't want to be there for you as an adult.

Your sister is ill but not in a place where she will accept any help, and n the meantime is more likley to hurt you than anything else. I'm really glad that you have support from your CPN. It sounds like you are a survivor of an abusive home and that your sister hasn't escaped yet. When she does you can be there for her, in the meantime I think that you need to build your own healthy home.

I also think you need to distance yourself from your mother as well as your sister.
I really feel for you Bionic, she's just tried to emotionally manipulate you,
she wasn't there for you when you needed her support at hospital and she
tried to send your S to stay with you when she knew that you had been/are suffering with your own MH,
not to mention her behaviour during your childhood illness...
She's toxic and by the sound of it only "needs" you to be her own emotional crutch.
Don't allow her to continue putting you in second place and letting you down Bionic, nor should she be trying to force you into your S mess. You said you'd support your S if she sought help - I don't think you could of been any fairer tbh.
Look after yourself and concentrate on getting rid of the bloody annoying cough :) better and your own family.
Good luck with the LO, I hope it stays put for a long time yet, take care x

p.s - good luck to your S, I sincerely hope she gets some help and sorts herself out.