counselling over narcissistic mother and enabling father

[tiptoemum]

Hi, I have posted odd bits and pieces in the past about my family problems regarding working out that my mother is a narcissist and that my father her enabler. I had enough of all the horribleness about 2.5 months ago and since then have written various letters and emails explaining my point of view. This culminated on Wednesday evening with a meeting between them, my husband and I which my father organised trying to enable our relationship, or rather their extremely limited relationship with our 3 children to continue.
The meeting was a disaster with them walking out after 35 minutes. They explained that they were normal and good parents because of the way they handled a situatiopn which I had when I was 16, 25 years ago. The folowing day I recieved a text from my father apologising for trying to organise a meeting to plan a way forward and not being prepared for walking into an ambush. There was no ambush, but for once I stood up for myself. He was suggesting that they should be able to see our children, aged 12, 7 and 5, and that our relationship could build on from that. I thought as did my husband that this was completely the wrong way round and there was no way the children could have a relationship with them if my mother and I aren't even on speaking terms!
So I think we will end up if we aren't already being 'no contact'. My question is should I get some counselling over this? My head says that we are completely doing the right thing for our family unit as they bring nothing positive to our family but my heart is questioning. It seems so wrong to never want to speak to your parents again. Would a counsellor help with this?
I have never been a drama queen, my mother is the one who has counselling for depression, break downs etc. I hate confrontation and have spent my whole life avoiding argument, I am the biggest pushover as a boss that you could ever wish to have! But it must start to feel better than this. I would love some advice from someone who has been through this. Many thanks.

Do you not think that going the route of letters, e-mails and meetings just inflates this into something far bigger than it needs to be? I can't help feeling that counselling risks a similar effect because it suggests you're the one with the problem, when all you're doing is responding to the behaviour of others. Obviously I don't know what the back-story is but can't you just treat your mum the way you would any other difficult/horrible person you come into contact with, keep her mostly at arms' length and in a controlled environment the rest of the time? The people I've known that have gone 'no contact' have often felt as you do, that it is a Pyrrhic Victory.

Have you read that book 'you're not crazy, it's your mother'?

It has lots of advice and it says don't bother trying to explain your POV or get them to change because in their eyes they've done nothing wrong

I tried emailing my parents a few yars ago and the reply I got shocked me so much I knew never to bother again

have to disagree with cogito

i think counselling would help you because as they always say you cant change them but you can change the way you feel about them, counselling might help to put them into perspective.

i dont have this prob with my paretns but with my dh parents - she is narasicist and fil is enabler.

when i met dh he was in very expensive therapy learning how to deal with them...and helping him being un tangled from thier mess....

whilst he still has lots of issues with them, as it doesnt switch off over night i have noticed - that i struggle to deal with thier brutality over the years- but i cant afford the expensive therapy! i wish i could.

we had one relate session however that was enourmoulsy helpful and if we could have afforded would have def gone back for more.

it helped us - put us first not them, and unite us more as a family unit that should be protected.

we have severly limited contact and dh is much much better at not bieng bullied by them - his dad bullying on behalf of mother who cries and uses emotional black mail all the time.
infact his therapist helped him see the cyrying as a tool to get her way - which gave him the realisation and strgentgh to not cow down to it.

if i may say if they have treated you without due ..whatever in the first place they are unlikley to repsond to a letter or email as they just dont get it - or wont it - there are none so blind as those who refuse to see....

i very naively wrote my much older sister a letter about me being keen to put the past behind us and forge a relationship - i really opened up in the letter....and when i went to visit her ( she lived abroad) hoping to start afresh etc....i found her then partner waiving my letter round all the locals at a pub he ran, laughing at me and my letter!!!!

i was totally ridiculed. but lookingback what did i expect? she had never treated me well - why would one letter from me change that? she didnt have it in her.

over the years i did try again, until the last time last year when i realised FINALLY....she will never ever be able to give me what i want - she doesnt have it in her!

there is usually one side who is the willow - flexible - willing to embrace - reasonable and one side that is rigid and un moving...and un reasonable.

Hi tiptoemum. I agree with cogito about the emails and meetings blowing it all up. However I do understand why you did it. Ofcourse its hard to just stop speaking to your parents.

I stopped talking to mine (and basically my whole family) in may. I took the decision to not have a confrontation because I knew my mum would turn it all around so that I was the terrible one, and my dad would back her up. To me that would hurt more than just stopping contact.

It does get easier. But it really is so hard. I had a melt down on my dads birthday and mine. I miss them. I am in turmoil over DD missing them. I am hurt that they dont even want to see her or know why I have disappeared (they are fully aware I think and just dont want to admit they are wrong) but every day gets a little easier.

As for counselling, only you can tell if it would help you. It probably would be helpful to hear from someone outside of the situation that you are right to feel how you do and that its not your fault.

Have you read Will I Ever Be Good Enough? It has a bit of information about the benefits to the daughter (of a narcissistic mother) of therapy/counselling.

I never make contact, am contactable with some effort, and try to maintain the sort of non-relationship that allows my family of origin to maintain face. I didn't want to do the "no contact" thing, mainly, as you say, to avoid discussing it all. The compromise is that the grandparents have no unsupervised contact with the DCs. Everyone's situation is different, but for us, this is the only reasonable option.

One of the difficulties in your situation is that you have knowledge and understanding about your mother's personality structure that she does not have. She and your father may never get to the point of wanting to explore the dynamic between them further. You don't need to tell them if they are not able to hear or understand. Even though the revelation will help you for the rest of your life, telling them about it mightn't.

Definitely go to councelling. But make sure you get one that has experience with narcs. People who have not experienced really don't get it. Work on how having a narc for a mother has affected you and how you can ensure it doesn't affect the rest of your life.

For what it's worth I think limiting or cutting contact is worth it. Letters won't work with narc. They are incapable of self reflect or empathy. Did you notice how your dad organised the meeting but then accused YOU of setting up an ambush. It's just not rational.

It's ok to cut contact if that's is what's best for your family.

Funnily enough, I did it in reverse, DP's family are the narc and enabler and when DS arrived I suddenly saw their true colours and got massively hurt and upset. So much so that I decided to go back into counselling. My counsellor coined the term narcissistic but somehow didn't explain why MIL was behaving the way she did, only concentrating on how I felt and how I could handle it. It didn't help tbh. It's only after writing on MN and being pointed to webpages on the net about NPD and FOG that I started to understand why MIL was behaving the way she was, why FIL and SIL were finding her behaviour acceptable why DP was behaving the way he was etc... Now that I understand I can handle it much better. I still think about it but have lost the desire to try and fix it as I accept that it is beyong my capacity.
Was it Cogito who said therapy or counselling would put the spot light on you, when that's not really the issue. Accepting someone for what they are is the first step to heal a wound. If you think cunselling can help you accept them for what they are, go ahead... But for me that has always been a private exercise, taking time.

Thanks so much for all the feedback. I am still digesting it all. I agree cogito that letters etc inflates and inflames the issue, but it also feels like a process that has to be gone through. Just because other people who have had the same type of problems know that they won't work you feel as if you must give it a try. You can't appear to give up on a relationship with your parents without even trying to explain why.
It is interesting what you say igosentriq about you compromise with the children I just feel we are so far away from even this. I have ordered a copy of the book you have suggested, thank you. And your final paragraph is extremely powerful.
Aussiebean, I can't believe how you saw straight through my fathers argument about being ambushed, you are right, he called the meeting, if we were prepared to stand our ground we were hardly ambushing him/them.
So I will give more thought re counselling, there is no rush the situation isn't about to change overnight. I don't want to bore my friends, lovely as they are, I guess reading more and communicating on here will help. Thank you for your time and thoughts.

And thanks Eliza, it sounds like you have had a terrible time of it. You are right about us being a family unit that needs to be protected, we must come first.

Some fabulous advice on here!

I would only like to add; work through what you WANT from 'grandparents' and/or parents.
Make a list down the left hand side of a page of what you WANT.
Then on the right hand side, list what you are GETTING.
And weigh it up.

Understanding that they are what they are is powerful. They will NEVER change. Within them is years of habit, programming, dysfunction which defines them. To ask them to change would be like to ask them to leave their house with all their possessions and move to China! Alien to them
The other thing I would say is that in my experience, it didn't work. My father in law was allowed access, supervised by my husband in the end.
My mother in law was lovely but bullied to death by him and I just didn't want any of my 3 children to witness the toxicity that was their marriage.
It was so painful to let go because I love the 'Darling buds of May' grandma grandpa apple pie idyllic dream and when I got married, the I laws seemed soooo charming, I thought this is going to be so fabulous. But the facade very quickly fell down and he became very controlling, (not so you'd notice) but I just felt he was rude, obtuse and sneaky and after about 5years I did my list, realised that this was Draculas Castle not The Darling Buds of May; and withdrew politely and slowly. Even narsacists deserve to be spoken to with dignity and it made me feel that to the end I behaved like a lady
Anyway, as I said, some fab advice on here already but in my opinion the list of needs/wants/wishes works for me every time on almost everything. You can talk endlessly about the past and being offended/hurt etc (which you do need to do) but I love looking forward and planning and doing; and the list :) is my magic tool. That and the belief that you are actually ENTITLED to your 'WANT' list. Good luck :)

Hi tiptoemum,

Head has to overrule heart here. These people have no heart at all.

re your comment:-
"Just because other people who have had the same type of problems know that they won't work you feel as if you must give it a try".

Trying to resolve a relationship has to be a two way process and your parents do not want to know. Therefore by doing this you just set yourself up for a big fall. Also you are dealing with a dysfunctional family and they by their very nature do not play by the "normal" rules governing familial relations. All such rules that apply to "normal" and emotionally healthy functioning families go out the window.

and this comment:-
"You can't appear to give up on a relationship with your parents without even trying to explain why"

Your parents refuse to see your point of view and never will get it. Its all about them you see, nothing and no-one else matters to them. All narcissistic mothers need a willing enabler to help them (he gets a dog's life as well btw but he is too stupid to realise that he is being used) and such weak men like your dad too also act out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

They are not worth it honestly. You can and should walk away now because these people too will have a deleterious effect on your childrens lives.

Counselling for your own self is invaluable but you need to find a counsellor who knows about narcissists. I would also suggest you read Children of the Self Absorbed and the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

To my mind it it not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist; it just does not work out. Even just calling such people "difficult" or "horrible" is well shy of actually understanding how they operate.

BTW you did not make them like this or turn your mother into a narcissist; in her case her own birth family did that particular lot of damage.