ex's mom, and now ex, smacking our kids

[butterflybee]

Hello amazing relationship boarders! I've posted this in Lone Parents, but thought I'd put it here as well as there's more traffic.

I've got a bit of a dilema. For background: my ex and I split up a bit over a year ago and our kids are 3 and 5 years old. He's abusive, of the mostly verbal / controlling / manipulative variety. He's taking me to court for residence, although we just got a contact order for alternate weekends and one weeknight overnight the middle week. His mom lives with him and does a big chunk of the childcare when the kids are at his.

I don't believe in smacking, never have. I don't mean that as judgemental, just stating my position. His family grew up with smacking and see it as very normal. I've put a lot of reading and work into setting up other discipline methods and we were explicitly no hitting when we were together. My ex isn't very good at setting limits with the kids and making them stick.

My kids have started saying that they've been smacked at their dad's. It's always come out when they're calm and talkative, often right before bed. I don't probe if it doesn't come up, although I do ask questions if the topic's opened.

First it was grandma and that she tried to do it - the big kid ran away from her and was quite upset by it. Now it seems to be actually happening, and when I asked why grandma hit (i.e. what had big kid done) it seemed to be for saying the word poo. I don't agree, but at least I can understand the arguement for physical discipline when a small child is putting themselves in danger and other tools don't work. This doesn't seem to be that situation. The little kid just started talking about how both grandma and now daddy have smacked her. She talked a few times about being pushed on the bed and daddy hitting her bottom and it seems like she's trying to work out what it means. It definitely had a big impression on her.

I feel very stuck. I've made it clear to the kids it's wrong to hit and that I'm sorry it's happened to them. I don't feel like it's something I can talk to my ex or his mother about as we've got a very strained relationship. I'd ideally like it to stop, especially from his mother as these aren't even her kids and her son seems to be taking the lead from her. If that's not possible, I'd appreciate any advice on helping my kids deal with it.

Sorry this got so long..

I am entirely with you on this one. I don't believe in smacking for these very reasons. How can you teach a child that hitting is wrong and that no one should ever touch you in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable, while also hitting them on the bottom when they've done something wrong! It's confusing.

I don't have much advice really. I'm lucky that my ex is on the same page as me with regard to smacking. Neither of us have ever done it.

You can't control how they discipline the children when they are there, unfortunately. I think the only option you have is to try to talk to them about it - however uncomfortable and difficult that is.

There will be someone along with some advice, but I just want to say you don't need to advice on helping your kids deal with it, it needs to be stopped. But you know that already. Poor kids, its a horrible prediciment to be in, for both them and you as things are strained already and I can understand why you want to proceed with caution before saying anything.

The pair of bullies.

Hi Butterflybee,
Unfortunately I think you will have bite the bullet and confront your ex about this. It must be confusing for your DCs to suddenly be punished in this way, and for minor things too by the sound of it. Nothing will change unless you speak to him about it. In fact, it may even get more frequent as they get more comfortable doing it.

Oh - and I meant to say. I would not come at it from a 'please do not smack my children' stand point, but maybe from a 'I think we should be consistent with our approach to discipline. What I do at home is...x... Do you think we could all do the same?'

Thanks for the responses, it helps me unmuddle the situation. I'm scared it will start to become something they're comfortable with and I'm here trying to work out the best way to stop it.

Discussion will need to be over email as spoken words are twisted or ignored. I think I need to be more explicit about the smacking not being acceptable than you're suggesting Lifeissweet as he would likely read your phrase as me critising and controlling him and the conversation would get sidetracted into how amazing his parenting approach is so I should take on his ideas instead. Or something :) , his rants can be pretty unpredictible and incoherent. He's increadibly sensitive to 'being told what to do' and his first reaction is usually either very defensive or some sort of counter attack.

Is it better to approach him than his mother?

I've often found it useful to defer to an outside authority so it's not me 'telling him what to do.' I need to call the CAFCASS officer to let her know this is happening... can anyone else thing of other sources or guidance on this topic?

When my ex smacked during a contact visit I told my solicitor who sent a letter to my ex. It worked

I think you should treat it as any other assault and stop contact and go to the police.

If someone hit my child it would be the last time they would ever go near them.

Maybe SS should be informed as well, just in case your daughter tells a teacher or someone that her father and grandmother push her down and attack her.

And why can't she say 'poo'? What if she needs a poo?

I think you do need to approach ex rather than his mum as he will have to tell his mum what he finds acceptable.

There's a law about smacking - it can't be sufficiently hard to leave a mark. That might be worth looking up and quoting although I realise that wouldn't get you what you wanted i.e. no smacking!

I think it is terrible that smacking is allowed as 'reasonable chastisement' unless it leaves a mark. I entirely agree with MoongirlsCat that it should be treated as assault and the OP should be able to remove the children from their care. However, they are not doing anything illegal as it stands (which is completely shocking in this day and age - what about emotional scarring?). It is tricky, but she has no grounds to deny access at the moment.

I like the solicitor's letter. I think a letter setting out that law and stating that you would go to the police if there was ever so much as a red mark on them may put them off. Would that make things even more strained and difficult, OP?

Solicitor's letter is probably a very good idea... I'm away at the moment so will have a good think about wording and then post that here.

Doctrine, I don't think I want to bring up the law about leaving a mark. At the moment, what they're doing is legal just really upsetting. I worry pointing out the law would make them feel justified in what they're doing.

He's not going to stand up to his mother. He's just not. I need to address her directly somehow - possibly ask to speak to at the next handover and give her a copy of the solicitor's letter in person. Things are a bit less strained with her and I'd like to keep it that way so any ideas on how to be clear without offending are much appreciated :).

Maybe get solicitor to write to her as well as your ex? Although what they're doing may not be against the law I completely agree with you that smacking is not an appropriate or effective form of discipline. A friend of mine was in a similar position to you, having left an abusive partner. I'm not sure how it was done but in the contact order it stated that smacking was not allowed by either parent.

Moongirls - it's not about asking to go toilet, she's doing the 3yo thing of being slightly obsessed with how funny the word is. It doesn't bother me as she'll grow out of it but clearly bothers grandma a whole lot.

That said, it's a completely f**ked up think to smack over.

neuroticmum - I was starting to think about that as well. We've got court in Jan, I'll try to get that into the court order from that day.

If my ex or his mother ever smacked my DS, he wouldn't go there again. We don't have a contact/residency order though - our agreement is informal.

In your shoes I would contact my solicitor and log this disclosure your daughters have made. Your ex shares Parental Responsibility with you, and I believe this means decisions about discipline need to be made agreed on TOGETHER. Smacking is a big issue.

Your ex's mother does NOT have PR and it is therefore NOT LEGAL for her to be smacking your daughters.

Badgerina, this article suggests that "legal smacking" is not confined to those with PR:

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/children_shealth/8666066/Smacking-children-the-law.html

Doctrine You know, I've looked and looked and I can't find the reference I read that suggested only those with PR can smack their children. I think you're right. It is a horrible grey area.

OP, it would seem that your ex's mother DOES have the right to smack your children (as sickening as that is) I'm sorry for the misinformation

If my own mother hit my son, she'd not get him back again, let alone some abusive twat (My ex was an abuser) and his abuse enabling mother.

Go in HARD, you have to protect your DC. It happens again? ALL contact will stop and you will call the POLICE and report them for ASSAULT.

He doesn't get to bully you any more love, those days are LONG gone.

((((hug))))

"She talked a few times about being pushed on the bed and daddy hitting her bottom" - this sounds awful and an unacceptably rough way to treat a 3 yr old. You said that you are looking for authorities - maybe see what the NSPCC helpline has to say as well?

I would stop contact.

Make a complaint to the police.

Contact my solicitor.

In short, everything I could possibly do to prevent it happening again.

How fucking dare they ?

I agree with the others in the thread. I think that at the age your children are they are not purposely naughty. There is no need to smack them. It sounds a little rough to me in the way you have described it. However, smacking is a grey area but it really does depend on how it is being done - to be honest it does not sound right to me.

You know your ex better then anyone else. Ask yourself if he displayed aggression towards you at any point, is he short tempered - controlling etc. I think the advice to log it with your solicitor is right but perhaps also think about his access being via a visiting center if this is happening more regularly or if this seems to be escalating in any way.

Seek professional advice on how to approach it. There is the risk he will tell the children off for telling you (if he knows) and that might make it worse for them. You need to make sure you can either stop access OR make it a formal process via a visiting centre first before confronting someone who is clearly volatile.

Personally we do smack. We use a tap on the leg or hand of in the event my daughter does something herself which would hurt (kicking her legs with shoes on having been told not to being one example). Basically as an explanation of WHY she shouldn't be hurting others. "no kicking. Kicking hurts mummy. No. Not a joke. Kicking is naughty because it hurts. See (tap on leg) its not nice to be hurt is it? Mummy doesn't like it when you hurt her either. Now say sorry."

That to me is a logical use of physical chastisement for a small child.

However I don't think what your ex is doing is right. I would definitely go down the legal route. Do you have a formal custody agreement and is the approach to discipline set out there?

Thank you for all the ideas. I've just sent off an email to the NSPCC and will do the same for CAFCASS today - pretty much what's been said in this thread.

HayzE - that is what I'm most afraid of, that he will punish them for telling, increase secrecy or switch tactics to something less concrete but equally dammaging. He's extremely controlling, he would shake with rage but 'not be angry' and there have been physical elements to his abuse, both to me and at least one of the girls.

Hissy "He doesn't get to bully you any more love, those days are LONG gone." Thank you especially for this. It seems it's something I still need to hear again and again. I'm slowly shutting it down, it's just such a looong process.

Just wanted to say the support here has made me feel really touched. I'm so happy I found this place.

well nobody is supposed to go around hitting anybody just because they don't like what someone may be doing, saying...regardless of how important or relevant it may be....

Violence is wrong and it sends a very confusing message to children....it's ok to smack people who are doing something wrong.... ....never!!

This is all totally wrong for your DC's....I'm sorry but I would advise taking any steps to ensure this is stopped immediately....

I'd be absolutely livid....I wouldn't miss and hit the wall iykwim!!!

It is.a long slow process, the residual fear is hard to shake.

Once you do make a stand,.it gets easier to make the next one, and the next one.

You can do this, you kind of have to...