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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

HELP: Dc contact with abusive ex

12 replies

changer111 · 17/08/2012 20:54

Namechanged for this but I'm a regular Bit of background: left very abusive ex over a year ago. Direct unsupervised contact has been ordered :(. No one expected this after the hearing and I'm appealing (got good grounds), but in the meantime it will involve not complying with the order. Has anyone done this and what happened?
Thoughts please
Thanks x

OP posts:
TimeForMeAndDD · 17/08/2012 21:02
Sad

I have a Mumsnetter friend who has been advising me on this exact subject. I will give her a shout.

neuroticmumof3 · 17/08/2012 21:05

I hate it when courts get it so wrong. It's very depressing and scary. I'm not sure what would happen but potentially I think you could go to prison. Not sure if it would come to that in view of your appeal. Hopefully someone wiser than me in these things will be along shortly. It might be an idea to post this in legal as well.

solidgoldbrass · 17/08/2012 21:12

Appeal, don't comply, keep appealing, keep not complying, you can tie it up for years. Offer a compromise of supervised contact and hold out for that - refusing to agree to that will make the abuser look unreasonable, with any luck (a decent father being refused contact by a spiteful XP would jump through all the hoops...)

changer111 · 17/08/2012 21:23

Thanks everyone Thanks
Ex said in the hearing (repratedly in fact) that he would rather never see Ds again than see him in a contact center 'cos he was a man and wasn't gonna prove nothink' and that would 'just have to be the way it was'. He behaved appaulingly in court in everyway really. Openly agressive towards me etc etc

Anyway it was pretty much established that if I was telling the truth then there would be serious concerns about contact and the balance of harm would be heavily weighted against contact. But the judge gave a judgement where he did not accept my account of the abuse despite overwhelming evidence :( giving the most riciculous reasons and also wouldn't allow any of the witness evidence again for the most seemingly nonsensical reasons. For instance the key witness wasn't going to be considered as they didn't want they're adress or surname made public Confused as they didn't want my ex to find out where they lived.

I am appealing.. no doubt there at all, and I'm ready to not comply x
Its just scary

OP posts:
TimeForMeAndDD · 17/08/2012 21:25

I have PM'd you. You don't have to comply. It's up to your ex to enforce the order and take you back to court if you deny him access. Go ahead with your appeal.

solidgoldbrass · 17/08/2012 21:33

You might find this useful as well OP - judge sounds incompetent.

TimeForMeAndDD · 17/08/2012 21:44

OOh yes Changer please do that, follow the link and make the complaint!!

changer111 · 17/08/2012 21:53

Thanks ..i've just had a look at it
My solicitor told me a couple of days ago (I was talking to her about what I was gdoing wrong :() that the judge has a reputation for being a woman hating bigot..

OP posts:
springydaffs · 18/08/2012 08:16

HOw do we get rid of judges like this, that's what I'd like to know! Angry Angry

sorry, no specific advice though it sounds like you've had some good advice already. I also had a terrible judge in my divorce trial ( she was a woman-hating bigot! who adored my charming abusive ex from the minute she clapped eyes on him! etc etc)

It sounds like you have some good support in your sol and also people on here. I know of women who have refused unsupervised contact and one said in the courtroom they'd have to take her to prison because she would never agree to it. As far as I know, he never got unsupervised contact. Because of the mother's refusal to cooperate with an unsupervised contact ruling, a supervised contact ruling was put in place. Abusive ex didn't turn up.

CouthyMow · 18/08/2012 08:27

Not in North Essex are you? There is a Judge fitting that description here...

CouthyMow · 18/08/2012 08:32

SGB - would it be possible for you to pop over to a thread in legal I have started, and post that link, so I can talk to my friend about it, please?

The thread is called "Can this actually be ordered in a court?!"

I am on my phone, so can't nick the linky myself, but am seeing her later.

TIA.

Cashncarry · 18/08/2012 14:26

Hi Changer - coming a bit late to this thread but I would suggest re-posting in Legal with a bit more info for the legal types (of which there are many great ones on MN) to help you get to grips with what's happened and what might happen. More info on these specific points -

  1. You mention that unsupervised contact has been ordered - was this at a final hearing? I presume that it was since you mention that witness statements were prepared and that you're appealing the judgement. (If by any chance, it was an interim hearing, when is your next hearing? Has the Judge ordered any further investigation?)
  1. So far as the abuse by your ex - is it all historical evidence, as in it happened during the course of your relationship? Is any of it documented by the police or by social services? Has any violence happened after the end of the relationship? If so, was that documented?
  1. Was any violence perpetrated against the children themselves, either during the course of the relationship or after it finished, during contact? Was that violence documented, reports to the police/social services/GP? Did you take photos of any injuries?
  1. Did you have a CAFCASS report? Did they take into account any and all evidence in points 3 and 4? What was their recommendation? It sounds as though it might have been in your favour since you say in your OP "no one expected this" of the order for unsupervised contact?

Sorry if I'm going over old ground by asking these questions - it's just that the answers may be helpful in placing the judgement within a context. You mention that your solicitor thinks the judge in question has form for being prejudiced against women - that's a pretty out there accusation to make about a judge and I find it very surprising. What's your solicitor's take on all this? What have they advised you to do with regard to contact? It would be better to take the advice of someone who can see the whole picture in terms of evidence of the abuse, rather than us who only have what you say - that's no reflection on you and certainly I'm not saying that you're wrong - just that it's very hard to give advice based on your OP and subsequent posts where we can't see everything that has been put before the court.

So far as the unsupervised contact itself is concerned, because the Order is quite new and ostensibly takes into account the current picture, in your solicitor's shoes, I might be advising you to comply. I know that sounds horrifying and I'm sorry but it is what I would do. However, given that you are appealing there may be grounds to suspend the current order until such time as you have an answer as to whether or not you are going to get a fresh hearing. This is a matter for your solicitor to explore with the court but I certainly would not accept it as a given.

I'm afraid I know nothing of the procedure for appeals which is why I suggested posting in Legal so others who do might be able to help. I do know that if you do not comply with the terms of the Order, he has the right to make an application to enforce the Order. It is entirely possible that this hearing might be before the same Judge if Father requests it so be aware of that. He has to prove you refused to comply with the Order rather than had a reasonable excuse for not doing so. He can ask that you be compelled to do some Community Service it is proven that you refused to comply with the Order - again, the more experienced legal bods will be able to tell you how likely it is that you'll be given community service and how many times you'd have to breach the contact order before that even happened. It used to be the case that breaches of a contact order would result in finding the respondent in contempt of court leading to short periods of imprisonment but that rarely happened and now the enforcement procedure seems to cover the punishment as being that of unpaid work or financial compensation if applicable. Others more experienced might be able to clarify this point.

In any event, this enforcement procedure will all take time and it seems in your case, the more you can delay the Father applying for enforcement the better since you are appealing the original order. Your solicitor should be able to tell you if you can officially put off complying until the appeal comes through. In the meantime, now might be the time to get some evidence together. If the original CAFCASS officer is on your side, can you ask them to work with the children in some kind therapy to see how contact might affect them? Is it worth talking to the school to see if they can get a counsellor or someone objective to talk to them about contact? How about the GP - could you get a referral from them? If your solicitor says you have to comply and you then employ deliberate delaying tactics, you might find that you prove father's case for refusing to comply so be very careful about putting him off unless your solicitor is 100% behind you.

I'm sorry I don't have better news - bear in mind this is just my take on this with the little information given. It's entirely possible that I've got the wrong end of the stick which is why it's so important that you get your solicitor to explain the detail of what might happen if you refuse to comply and how he/she can best protect you and your kids in that scenario. Also bear in mind that also I once practised in that area, my knowledge is not up-to-date so you shouldn't rely on what I say, particularly when it comes to refusing to comply.

I really do hope this all works out for you - I'd suggest making an appointment to see your solicitor early next week with a list of questions with regard to the appeal and enforcement of the Order so that you can be entirely prepared for the next couple of months and what they might bring.

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