Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Dh is angry I am undermining him

69 replies

Spink · 09/07/2012 20:56

And I need help getting perspective.

He has always had a bit of a temper. Not physical but shouting, banging around. When he gets angry talking is impossible and winds him up. Sometimes I can see I totally contribute to this as I am frustrated with his reaction and say so, which escalates things. He then tends to leave the room, angrily.

One of our flashpoints is that dh is fed up with ds's 'naughtiness' and often shouts at him. Ds is 5. I think he is too harsh and that he loses his temper with ds too often. Dh thinks I am too soft. Sometimes I can see dh is getting close to blowing and rather unhelpfully try to intervene. Tonight, bedtime, ds mucking around, I went up once, he had a warning and then carried on, I then went up & took a toy away. Dh was upstairs at the time and when ds complained about the toy dh came in and started to tell ds off. He seemed to me to getting angrier and ds said 'ok I'm going to sleep now' and turned away. Dh continued talking (angrily) and I wanted him to stop as I thought I could see it escalating. I said something like 'dh I think ds understands now' and dh stormed out, swearing at me about my undermining him. I said that I was sorry but I didn't trust his temper. He said 'fuck you' and left the house.

I feel guilty that I undermined him and see his point that i was unhelpful. I also am pissed off that he is acting as though his temper is fine.

I don't know what to do. Anything I suggest is met with 'you do what you want, you know best'. Apart from his temper he is a lovely pa.

OP posts:
Ormiriathomimus · 10/07/2012 15:31

jimmyflip '"My Dad did not have a father at all growing up; he had no positive male role model to base his parenting on" Snap! Mine seems to think that being a dad means getting instant obedience and never negotiating.

garlicbutter · 10/07/2012 15:31

Ask DH to imagine how he'd feel if a man twice his height and bulk towered over him, raging. Is it how he wants his son to feel about him?

Ormiriathomimus · 10/07/2012 15:46

I think there is a differencebetween acceptable shouting and unacceptable shouting. Acceptable is when it is being used as disciplinary measure to demand attention - ie 'Stop arguing and get into bed DS!' and becauses it is rare it gets results. Unacceptable is when it's just continuous yelling because of loss of temper. I've done both but when I've done the latter I will always apologise because I wouildn't accept that behaviour from my children so I don't see why they should accept it from me.

garlicbutter · 10/07/2012 18:04

Well, exactly, Orm.

Would it be okay to rage like that at a passer-by? Why would you treat your own child worse than a stranger?

Spink · 10/07/2012 21:11

I'm glad I started this thread, though it feels very strange to write such private things. No one in RL would have a clue.

I apologise in advance for the MASSIVE post below, but I wanted to get out all my thoughts in response to your comments.

So, we talked. There was a bit of dh walking out on me during the talking and usually I would have then left it but instead I left it for a bit and then found him again so we could finish the conversation. It ended with us both upset but I think with an agreement that we need to stop this happening again and again.
(by the way, we do have two dcs, but dh does not tend to get as angry with dd, who is 3. I have my theories on that but won't go into them.. plenty to say without that!)

One thing I didn't explain properly was about how we generally deal with difficult behaviour. When I posted yesterday it was in the middle of it all and I can see it came across as dh always shouting in response to ds being naughty, and as us not providing boundaries for the dcs, and not agreeing on strategies to use when they do naughty things. Some years ago (before I had children) part of my job was to deliver parenting courses and to work with families where there were children with behavioural problems (ha, much easier in theory than practice). But we do use the strategies- the supernanny stuff- and that generally does work. We are also generally quick to respond when the dcs do something that is not ok and as such I would hope we are clear about what is ok and what isn't in terms of their behaviour. DS is pretty normal for a 5 yr old, I think, not unusually misbehaved. DH does not fly off the handle every time ds does something 'naughty'. I think it happens when he feels out of control and when the strategies we are, or he is using aren't working. But that still means he is angry either at the dcs or me every day, and goes into a rage - so, seems out of control of that anger - a couple of times a week at least. I am not excusing it - I think it is totally unacceptable, and I have said that, explicitly. I do want to understand it though and to sort it out together with him.

I still do think a parenting course or couple sessions might give us the chance to work out what's going on when the strategies don't work, and how & why we both respond as we do. It is not so much about knowing the techniques as understanding the emotional reaction we each have to how our children are behaving and what we expect of ourselves as parents.

I think it has become really really clear that anger means very different things to both of us - my parents were never angry. They were very firm and clear about good and bad behaviour, but when it came to responding to it with negative emotion, it was more about guilt and disappointment than anger. Dh though was brought up in a house where anger was I think fairly commonplace. Where anger scares and worries me and I want to do whatever I can to make it stop, whereas it doesn't seem to bother him so much. When we talked about it yesterday he said he is ambivalent about the idea of anger management. I have asked him about it before, and found courses but he has not taken them up. I need to be firmer about asking him to follow it through, for us as a family.

He also tends to interpret ds's behaviour in a much more negative light than I do. The turning over in bed thing - I thought ds was feeling overwhelmed with dh aggressively going on at him, and wanted to let him know that he was going to do what we wanted, and go to sleep. Dh saw it as him being disrespectful.
When I disagree with that I think he thinks I am disrespecting him too as he just can't see it. Later, when the anger dies down, he can see my perspective but that goes out of the window the next time he gets angry.

So. I now think I have ideas about how to move on from here.
First, I think dh does need to talk to someone about anger so he can manage it better and get his head around why it makes him so crazy when he feels disrespected, by ds or by me. Why part of feeling like a 'proper dad' seems to be about having total control. I also think there is a background of him feeling he is not fulfilling his 'man role' in other ways which means he has such strong feelings about not being 'respected dad'.

Second I think we need to work out together what the hotspots are - bedtime is a killer at the moment and our usual techniques are not working. So, we need to try something different. I think we need to make sure that generally we are both using the strategies, too, that they are not sliding as we know they mostly work when we do use them properly.

Jimmyflip Bluestocking and DrJohnsonscat particular thanks to you, your posts felt really supportive.

OP posts:
garlicbutter · 10/07/2012 22:22

What an interesting post, Spink, thank you.

I had guessed DH comes from a family in which anger is fairly commonplace. I think you would find that his rages at DS and you come not so much - or at all - from feeling threatened in his masculinity, but very much from a conflation of respect and fear. There's a lot of good writing on the Web about the difference between fear and respect, much of it written for men.

I've been quite the rager in my time and have, indeed, provoked fellow ragers - particularly men - to exceed their own boundaries in anger. Growing up in a family that tolerates rage leads you to become the same even when you know it's undesirable. There are complex and multi-layered reasons for this but it's probably not necessary to look into them all.

The first major point is that we (ragers) need to really recognise that there are other ways of expressing & sharing strong emotions, which are actually more effective than the ones we learned. If you didn't grow up like us, it may be hard to understand what cataclysmic knowledge this is.

Once grasped, we suddenly find we can manage other people's rages through our, better, responses. Successful "anger management" (of our own and others') is often thought to be about control, but it's really the opposite. An emotion fully felt and clearly expressed is a hell of a lot more powerful than a rant.

Thanks to the power that comes with true feeling & expression, we find ourselves capable of managing anger. This is a huge revelation. So is the discovery that, no longer trying to 'control' (suppress) our true feelings, we lose the urge to rage inappropriately. Suppressed anger has a way of squeezing out through the weak points, which often turn out to be situations reminiscent of times when our own elders raged at us when we were young. When, unlike those adults, we understand what's going on and dare to own our emotions, that seepage dwindles away to nothing. I haven't raged in years, despite provocation, and probably never will again. Hurrah.

When you discard the wrong belief that emotions need to be controlled, you can easily see that the adults in your own childhood were all wrong about wanting to control you. They were blindly re-playing old patterns learnt in exactly the same way (rage, fear, control in their own childhoods). Never having questioned the idea that everything must be controlled (suppressed), they went on and took their turn at being the raging oppressor, never really thinking about it. It was just what adults do to their families. When I think back to my sibs and me as small children, anxiously trying Not To Upset Daddy, I also remember the technicolor excitement of a small child's daily life - always tempered, in our case, by fear and the need for a ready excuse for being children.

Near the beginning of his book "Homecoming", John Bradshaw asks the reader to spend some time observing children aged 4 or so. He asks us to notice how little and vulnerable they are, yet also so full of clear-eyed wonder, intelligence and humour. He asks us to see how fascinated they are by apparently ordinary things, how ready to trust and make friends; to appreciate their fragility and their courage. I used to be a nanny - and a good one - but I had never observed children with such love and amazement. I probably was a good nanny because, like my parents, I viewed children as 'raw material' to be shaped. I regret never having truly appreciated them.

When you see children clearly, and recognise how incorrectly you were taught as a child, you don't feel like harming them. More to the point, you do see how the rage of hulking great parent - an adult this child trusts with their life and heart - must terrify them. And you stop doing it. You get your respect through guidance; teaching; wisdom. And for the simple fact that you are their parent. The need to control through fear now looks horrid, because you can see it for the damage it is.

I didn't realise I was going to write such an essay. I'm not at all suggesting your H needs to put himself through the gruelling process of 'inner-child work'! I felt it important to show you how the lessons I learned from it can benefit any adult who's unconsciously acting out damaging family behaviours. I hope at least some of it is some use to your husband :)

Spink · 10/07/2012 22:30

Garlic, I am going to show him your post. Thankyou!

OP posts:
EdithWeston · 11/07/2012 09:31

"No where does it say that the boy interrupted, he just turned over to go to sleep"

It says he answered his father back: "'ok I'm going to sleep now" and turned his back whilst his father was still talking to him and this was after two other instances if disobedience in the run up to this.

I do realise that not everyone would agree that you need to tackle backchat, evasion and disobedience every single time it happens. But there a many proponents of such an approach, in the belief that consistency provides helpful boundaries (and that it's easier to tackle difficult behaviour when the child is small).

Looking at boundaries, and how they are set and how they are maintained might be doubly important in this household, especially in the light of some of the more recent posts on this thread.

Ormiriathomimus · 11/07/2012 09:35

edith - he wasn't 'talking to him' he was yelling at him. Behaviour that requires little respect in return.

Spink · 11/07/2012 10:04

Edith, I don't understand what you mean about boundaries and recent posts- would you mind explaining?

OP posts:
GooseRocks · 11/07/2012 10:20

Marking my place to read later. Having similar issues with my DH. Unfortunately he doesn't see it in himself and feels like I'm constantly criticising, which is in itself a trigger, so not sure where to go from here really...

EdithWeston · 11/07/2012 10:54

I posted further about boundaries because I wanted to explain why I see repeated disobedience from the DS as a behavioural issue that does need tackling, and his rolling over whilst an adult was speaking to him about his behaviour is not an appropriate response. I believe that children need to know boundaries, and that unacceptable behaviour (which includes, in our house back chat and deliberate turning away from a speaker) receives consistent response.

I said doubly important here because of the thoughtful posts about the DH's recognition of his own boundaries, and how improvements come from consistency. So as well as the normal behaviour management that comes with responsible parenting, there appears to be a need for a household initiative to look at what constitutes acceptable behaviour in the adult as well, how desirable behaviour is rewarded and unacceptable sanctioned.

EdithWeston · 11/07/2012 11:03

"edith - he wasn't 'talking to him' he was yelling at him. Behaviour that requires little respect in return"

He didn't yell at his son according to OP: on the contrary, his shouting began after OP had interrupted him (in support of DS's backchat and turn away). That's why I asked in my first post if OP felt safe, as the anger is at her.

However, it does seem he has at least learned to remove himself when his anger shows (in this case after son and wife have one after another told him to be stop talking).

PooPooInMyToes · 11/07/2012 11:30

Edith It says he answered his father back: "'ok I'm going to sleep now" and turned his back whilst his father was still talking to him and this was after two other instances if disobedience in the run up to this.

Wow you come across as really harsh and stern! A real disciplinarian!

The child was just mucking about at betime, annoying but normal and not really worthy of the word "disobedience". Using that word to decribe it is what probably results in the DH becoming so angry about it, because he is thinking the child is disobeying him rather that being a child and doing what they do. Doesn't mean he should get away with it but the child isn't a little soldier, he's a normal child!

They way you speak about children scares me!

What the OP actually said was this . . . Dh was upstairs at the time and when ds complained about the toy dh came in and started to tell ds off. He seemed to me to getting angrier and ds said 'ok I'm going to sleep now' and turned away. Dh continued talking (angrily) and I wanted him to stop as I thought I could see it escalating.

That could mean that the boy got the message, decided to do as he was told and turned over to go to sleep. The dad wasn't necessarily interrupted but just carried on talking anyway. A sign of his own anger and feelings about it rather then because of anything his son was actually doing.

garlicbutter · 11/07/2012 12:09

Your persistence over a perceived disobedience scares me, too, Edith!

I may be biased (see above) but your attitude reminds me very strongly of my father roaring "Look at me while I'm shouting at you!" In my case, turning away would have been disobedience as he'd given a direct instruction to look at him. However, the instruction was irrational so my instinct to look away was valid.

In Spink's bedtime story, the child has not been told to maintain eye contact during his father's rant. He has been told to go to sleep. He obeyed the actual instruction and there was no disobedience in turning over. Your reading of the situation is wrong.

Spink, thank you very much for your kind reply! I know some people (my dad, for instance) would have taken badly to my post, but you've said DH recognises his temper is unhelpful. If any part of what I said chimes with him, I'll be delighted :)

EdithWeston · 11/07/2012 14:38

I was asked to expand on what I meant, so I did. I had no intention of posting at such length - originally it was simply to show that the words and actions as reported in OP struck me as part 3 of the ongoing tantrum: turning away from a speaker is rude.

It is only a later post which says DH gave him contradictory instructions when he stepped in (both told him to listen and also told him to go to sleep). will you be able to point this out to him at a calmer time?

It is of course difficult to assess level of anger from a written account. It still seems that it was aimed more at OP than DS, which is my why greater concern was for OP's safety.

pointythings · 11/07/2012 20:49

If you always stamp down on backchat, a child will never learn to stand up for themselves in the face of someone who is wrong or unjust. They will never learn to stand their ground or argue their case, because they will have learned that this is futile. If you want your child to turn out a servile sheep, this is the way to go.

Everything in moderation, even discipline.

Mumsyblouse · 11/07/2012 20:59

pointythings in that case, I will have champions of justice in my two who backchat all the time even though they get disciplined for it!

pointythings · 11/07/2012 21:06

But there's a difference between backchat and standing up for yourself, Mumsyand that is a distinction both parents and children need to learn. It takes time, and making mistakes, and talking about it when not in the heat of the moment. I will not negotiate in the middle of a situation, but I will always talk about it afterwards when everyone has calmed down, and see how we can do better next time. DH and I have been doing this since our DDs started talking, and they are now very adept at social cues. They know that if they have a point and make it reasonably and courteously, they will be listened to - this means a lot less flouncing and shouting.

The zero tolerance approach doesn't equip children with the skills they need to become assertive adults - and neither does letting them walk all over you. It's a balancing act.

FWIW I agree that the OP's DS was most likely trying to detach himself from the situation in the only way he knew, because he was scared. We are talking about a 5yo here after all. My DH used to be a shouty parent - until he saw that staying calm, recognising triggers and defusing early actually worked much better. We are a very different family now.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page