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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Desperately need advice...are we doomed?

21 replies

Needacrystalball · 02/07/2012 11:30

Will keep this brief as the long version would go on for pages!

Basically the upshot of a complicated history between DH and I is that where once he was my everything, very sadly I am now realising that a while ago I lost respect for him.

The lack of respect plus a lot of bitterness and low self esteem resulted in me making a silly mistake a couple of years ago. Again, details could go on for ever, but it didn't involve anyone else and I immediately realised my major error of judgement and took steps to rectify the situation. DH had an inkling and when he challenged me I denied everything as I knew there were no repercussions and I was ashamed of myself and scared of the consequences if I came clean. DH couldn't let it go. He knew something was vey wrong and in the end after 24hrs of denial I told him everything. He could see this and knew that I had never lied o him before.

But the damage was done. I feel like something has been broken. I want to respect and adore him, but I just don't. And he can't fully trust me anymore.

I want so much for things to work for us but I keep having that sick feeling that things are over. We still love ach other but once the trust and respect are broken can that bond between husband and wife ever find its way back?

OP posts:
EverybodysSleepyEyed · 02/07/2012 11:37

What made you lose respect for him?

Needacrystalball · 02/07/2012 18:10

A long history of low esteem for me meant that for many many years I allowed myself to be dangled on the end of a peice of string. He was never abusive or anything remotely like that, but for the first 18 months he kept me hanging on. We were 'just friends' but clearly more. He had a couple of relationships while I just hung on waiting for him. I would do anything for him. He said jump, I said how high etc. I would return clothes he didn't like, had interests that were instigated by him, had my hair how he liked it. The bigger things were related to the progress of our relationship and the pace. I was always waiting. And hurting.

The big change happened over the decision to have another DC or not. It was something I ached and longed for but something he just couldn't cope with. So we haven't, but for 18 months the hurt was beyond beleif. Thats when I broke his trust and I think it stemmed from years of built up frustration that I never felt quite good enough, or worthy enough in our relationship. I had some therapy and started taking ad's and it changed everything. I now have self respect and won't allow myself to be unintentionally manipulated any more.

Its not his fault. he never did anything wrong, but I'm angry about it all. Angry with myself for allowing myself to be made to feel like I have done and angry with him too.

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izzyizin · 02/07/2012 18:59

It seems that you put him on a pedestal and have now come to the realisation that your idol has clay feet, and in fact has had terracotta clodhoppers all along.

You're angry with yourself for having invested so much of your emotional energy in a man who, contrary to what you once believed, is no better or worse than many others, but you can't blame him for having faults or deficiencies that you chose to not to see when you were intent on placing him so high above you.

Without knowing in what way you 'broke his trust it's not possible to determine whether your relationship is 'doomed', but I suspect that you may need to actively work together to move it to a place where you both have more realistic expectations about the other.

FWIW, it is isn't possible to intentionally or unintentionally manipulate anyone who refuses to allow themselves to be manipulated but, that said, in the general give and take of healthy relationships we may find ourselves doing things to please others even though it may be mildly inconvenient for us or we may sometimes wish we hadn't bothered.

Needacrystalball · 02/07/2012 19:36

"You're angry with yourself for having invested so much of your emotional energy in a man who, contrary to what you once believed, is no better or worse than many others, but you can't blame him for having faults or deficiencies that you chose to not to see when you were intent on placing him so high above you."

Totally agree Izzy. Ok....so I 'tampered with' the contraception just the once Blush Took the morning after pill the next day. Denied everything for 24 hrs as felt it was a stupid mistake that I had sorted and what good would come from admitting it. But he just knew and needed me to be honest.

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izzyizin · 02/07/2012 20:15

That's not such a big deal, is it? Your longing to have another dc temporarily overwhelmed you but you had the good sense to make sure that nothing could come from your momentary lapse.

IMO by taking the MAP you amply demonstrated your respect for your dh and for the integrity of your relationship with him.

You say that your dh 'can't fully trust' you any more? In what way is he failing to show his trust in you?

Needacrystalball · 02/07/2012 20:33

Sorry, was going to add that. Basically i have been coming into contact with an OM through work. The contact is minimal but we do have a connection. At first I had a bit of a crush on him but recognised that that was all it was and knew that with me being married and him having a DP it was all just daydreaming anyway. DH has sensed this. He is very very 'aware' and alert in life. He wants me to change the nature of my work so that I no longer see this OM, but I appreciate the little friendship that we have and their has been no flirting and there is no contact outside of work. I think that if I respected DH I would help him gain my trust by doing this, but equally I really don't want to :(

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EverybodysSleepyEyed · 02/07/2012 21:11

Do you have one child?

It doesn't sound to me that ether of you are particularly happy in the relationship. It sounds like you already have one foot out the door.

I think you need to have a real think about why you are staying together and why you are scared to end it

sternface · 02/07/2012 21:20

I think tampering with someone's choices about bringing a child into the world when they don't want one is a big deal, as is the denial and lying thereafter and having to drag the truth out of you. If he hadn't sensed something and pursued it, he probably thinks you'd still be lying about it now.

Same with the OM. It sounds like he sensed something was wrong and had to drag the truth out of you.

What he probably doesn't trust is your ability to own up to anything of your own volition.

The strange thing was, when I read your OP earlier I had the strongest sense that the things you were citing as reasons for not respecting him any longer just didn't make any sense. His early ambivalence seemed like old news, given that you went on to marry and have a child together - and it seemed unlikely (and frankly a bit rich) that you'd lost respect for him because of your own untrustworthy behaviour.

So I wondered whether you had met someone else and were now re-writing history and dredging up ancient grievances to justify your desire to have a relationship with a new man.

And here he is.

Despite what you say about this friendship being innocent and going nowhere, I'd say the only reason for that is because the OM is putting the brakes on it - not you. Maybe your husband thinks this too.

Needacrystalball · 02/07/2012 23:44

Sternface, I agree that what I did was a big deal. It was was a moment of madness that I took steps to rectify and did rectify as soon as I was able. I was far from thinking straight when I made the mistake but thinking very clearly when I fixed it. The lying about it came from fear about the possible consequences and NOT because I had any plans to bring an unwanted child into the world, and was hort lived.

The "old news" is only feeling relevant now because I have only recently began to feel any sense of self reliance and self worth and I am in a way experiencing sadness for the situations I let myself be in at the time. It is a long time ago which is why I've not gone into details but I let myself be very walked over and hurt. At the time it didn't matter to me that I felt like that. We have moved on but I'm needing to deal with the "old news" that I wish I had had the self esteem to deal with when it was current.

And I really meant it when I said I don't want a relationship with this man. He's not putting any brakes on. Theres nothing to brake.

I'm just feeling very confused and rather lost.

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WaterAllAround · 03/07/2012 10:06

I too suspect that the OM has got more than a bit to do with how you feel. Otherwise you wouldn't even have mentioned him, would you?

To be honest, I could have written half your posts myself. I am feeling very similar to you at the moment.

I also feel like I have finally grown up and realised what a fool I was to put up with some of dh's behaviour years ago. He also has grown up and has been an excellent husband and father for many years now.

But, I also have another man in the picture. Our relationship has gone a bit further than yours and it has left me in a mess.

Dh's place up on the pedastal in my head has been well and truly taken over by the OM and I have lost all respect for him.

So, what came first? My feelings for OM, or my loss of feelings for dh? I really don't know. It's a bit chicken or egg. The only thing I can do is to give it time and see what happens.

Needacrystalball · 03/07/2012 10:23

Water, thank you so much for your reply. Sounds like exactly the same situation in many ways. Is OM single? Years ago I was so sure I had all the answers and that life was very simple. I could have never imagined feeling the way I do now.

Does your DH suspect things aren't right between you both?

I guess you are probably right. Things with DH were in a ropey place and the respect and loss of feelings had been slowly dissapearing over a long period of time before I met OM and developed ths silly crush thing. But if I'm honest he has been a catalyst for me to question my marriage even more. Which is ridiculous as I really don't want a relationship with him. I know it wouldn't work. And even just to cross the line with OM in any way at all scares the hell out of me, and i know myself well enough to know that I would fall to peices if I betrayed DH in that way, so it's staying in my head. Which I except isn't a great situation but I am learning fast that feelings and emotions are very complicated.

I too am in this limbo land where all I feel I can do is give it time. Its like I'm walking on a tight rope and I'm still on it, but wobbling all the time, looking down at the horrific drop below.

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WaterAllAround · 03/07/2012 10:52

Wow. We should be buddies! I have just beenreading back through some old threads of mine from about 6 months ago and they say almost word for word what you are saying now!

I don't know if hearing my story will make any difference to you, but for me the situation has got a whole lot worse.

The OM is also married with children, but I always suspected that he fancied me so it was oh too easy to walk into a flirty, giggly, e-mailing all the time relationship with him. This has led onto after work drinks and kissing and spending lots of time together.

The whole thing has progressed very slowly and gradually, and throughout it all my feelings for dh have disappeared completely.

Less than 6 months ago, I was sitting here calling this a silly crush and saying that I still loved (and fancied) dh!

I suppose, back at the stage where OM was just a catalyst making me question my marriage, there must have been a point where I thought 'well, stuff it, dh used to be a twat, I have been stuck at home raising 2 children for years, this is MY time'.

What made me think that? Was it my strength of feeling for OM? Or was it that I reached a point in my life where I grew up, I suddenly lost that unhealthy co-dependency I'd always had on dh and realised that I used to be a doormat?

I don't know the answer to that and I wish I did Sad

EverybodysSleepyEyed · 03/07/2012 11:22

I think you both need to be careful that you are not replacing your dh with om on that pedestal.

I would focus on putting yourself on that pedestal before embarking on a new relationship. Particularly when it is likely to end messily.

sternface · 03/07/2012 12:02

It is human nature that when we want to do something that we know is wrong, we find justifications for it. In affairs, sometimes those justifications are to do with the concept of 'self-reward' for a difficult life e.g stressful job, sick child, brush with death, recognition of own mortality but when women have affairs, it's nearly always their own relationship that gets selected as the causal factor.

There are complex reasons for this. Women are socialised to nurture families and to associate sex with love, so when a woman has a sexual affair that could break two families, her guilt and the opproprium dished out by others is often far greater than it is for men. Because men are socialised very differently, they are often far clearer-sighted about the reasons for their affairs and their initial default is not to find causal factors in their relationship (although that sometimes comes later).

This is what I think is happening here with both of you. It's especially obvious on this thread because the grievances you have with your husbands are old ones, about situations where your own behaviour was complicit in the difficulties you faced. You are describing nothing new and in fact most relationships that were formed when a couple is young involve early immaturity and difficulty with responsibility. But you've both admitted that your husbands changed and grew up.

If your husbands were writing here, they might comment on their own frustrations with you both when your relationships were young, but they would be unlikely still to be holding it against you, unless it was suddenly politic for them to do so and was helping them to find a justification for doing something wrong to you both.

The solution is to own your true reasons for having or wanting an affair and to concentrate less on causal factors in your relationships and more on causal factors within yourselves as individuals. Don't let yourselves off the hook and acknowledge some things that might be unedifying about your own character and personalities, but nevertheless need to be faced.

If you don't do this, you will continue to blame anything and everyone for your own behaviour and some of your marital grievances will become self-fulfilling prophesies i.e. your marriages will become worse because of your interests elsewhere. This is why with some men, the 'causal factors' are re-written after the fact. Their marriages get worse because of what they are doing and there is some 'backdating' when this happens, rather than responsibility taken for causing the problems in the first place.

Women's reasons for having affairs are no different to men's. Some women (like some men) have affairs simply because there is the opportunity, they fancy the idea of having sex and romance with someone new, they like the attention and have a tendency to self-medicate when aspects of life get tough. The character traits are similar too; selfishness, an unwillingness to take personal responsibility and an over-reliance on romantic love and sex for own esteem. But women are far more likely to confuse lust with love (the former is still unacceptable for women, whereas the latter is understood and accepted) and because of the shame associated with women's sexuality, are far more likely to invent elaborate reasons for their behaviour that cast blame outwards and not inwards. Women in affairs are also far more likely to stop short of penetrative sex and delude themselves that they haven't been unfaithful, for the same 'shame' reasons.

What sometimes helps is to try to stand in all the other people's shoes.

How would you feel if your husbands were unearthing your initial relationship mistakes in order to justify an affair? How would you feel if some OW who'd convinced herself she had good reasons for having an affair with your husbands, felt entitled to do that without thinking of the effects on you? How would you have felt as children if your mother or father were causing this unhappiness?

The selfishness that is always involved in affairs often makes that difficult, but it's essential.

Needacrystalball · 03/07/2012 14:28

Sternface, thats some really thought provoking and insightful comments you've made. Definately things that I really want to think about. Thats why I cam here in the first place. Thank you.

Water, I'm really sad that you are going through this as well and that its got even more messy. The OM in question in my life has DC's from a previous relationship and is currently in a somewhat 'loose' relationship with his DP. I say OM but actually nothing has happened verbal, physical or lingering looks etc so for now i am assuming its a very one sided crush. Your phrase 'unhealthy co-dependency' is exactly where I was for years, from a young age. I think paert of this for me is actually feeling like I want to break free and be my own person for a while as its something I've never experienced.

How on earth are you coping with it all right now? Do you have any idea what you are going to do? The thing is that I do still love DH, its just become more of a brother sister type relationship and has been for a long time, so my emotions really are in a total muddle.

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Needacrystalball · 03/07/2012 14:41

Oh, and yes, the greivances are old ones, however there are also frustrations that have always been there and are likely to never change, ie, DH's inability to connect on and emotional and intimate level (he fully accepts that this is true for him) and also frustrations that are current, largely due to the lack of intimacy in our relationship.

And yes, "The solution is to own your true reasons for having or wanting an affair and to concentrate less on causal factors in your relationships and more on causal factors within yourselves as individuals. Don't let yourselves off the hook and acknowledge some things that might be unedifying about your own character and personalities, but nevertheless need to be faced" I agree with this also. I need to feel and be shown love and closeness. I need that reassurance. I've come a long way in dealing with self esteem issues through counselling and I'm not the clingy, needy girl I once was, but I would rather like to actually feel the love DH has for me rather than just be told "I married you didn't I. Surely that tells you all you need to know".

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sternface · 03/07/2012 14:55

That wasn't quite what I meant when I suggested you look inwards.

It's understandable to want to feel loved by an intimate partner.

But the response to that should be an adult dialogue where both your needs are expressed. If it's the case that you can no longer meet eachother's needs and in your case that your husband cannot change, it's okay to end the marriage and accept that what was acceptable years ago is not working for you now as an older woman.

It's not okay to deal with this dissatisfaction covertly, because the punishments you are enacting are not in the open domain and the actions associated with them will have repercussions for the OM, his partner and possibly his children too.

When I said look inwards, examine your personality more. You've admitted on this thread that you tell lies of omission rather than face the consequences. There will be other aspects though - selfishness, esteem too tied up with romantic relationships, being secretly punitive, passive-aggressive in communications, unwillingness to take responsibility for your feelings and actions. Take your husband out of the equation and focus on you and why you behave this way.

Needacrystalball · 03/07/2012 16:28

Sternface "There will be other aspects though - selfishness, esteem too tied up with romantic relationships, being secretly punitive, passive-aggressive in communications, unwillingness to take responsibility for your feelings and actions. Take your husband out of the equation and focus on you and why you behave this way." Thats a bit harsh isn't it? There are some stong judgements there based on just a few posts I have made.

My "lies of omission" have totalled just the one and only lasted 24 hrs. We all make mistakes! I'm not lying to DH about this OM as it has all been in my thoughts and no further. Sometimes thoughts and words can hurt people unnecessarily and I'm trying here to deal with these thoughts and feelings so that I don't actually hurt anyone.

And as for "punishments I'm enacting"...I haven't! We all have thoughts and feelings from time to time that would be hurtful or damaging if they went beond that, but as I've said, nothing has happened even remotely!

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WaterAllAround · 03/07/2012 17:36

Crystalball - are you actually me??!?!?

We too settled down very young, and I absolutely thought dh was the answer to everything back in the early days. I was besotted with him. This is obviously why I put up with some such crap behaviour.

He also has a complete inability to connect with anyone or to communicate properly. This is in all aspects of his life, not just with me. He is also very passive and laid back to the point of uselessness. He doesn't have an opinion on anything, and if he did he wouldn't voice it.

This is why I have gradually lost respect for him as I have grown up.

And now, I have met OM who is the exact opposite of him. Strong-willed, opinionated, good at communicating, not afraid to show his feelings. I never knew men like that existed! It is a revelation and has really brought home to me how much rubbish I have put up with from dh because I kind of thought all men were a bit like that.

I really don't know whether this level of disrespect for someone in a marriage is salvageable. I was feeling exactly like you when the OM was just a crush. Acting on it has only made it worse. I'm not leaving yet though. I haven't felt this way for long enough to make that jump. Time will tell, I suppose

Sternface - always really appreciate your posts. You make a lot of sense and I always read them over and over whilst trying to make sense of the mess.

WaterAllAround · 03/07/2012 19:52

Anybody know what's happened to this thread?

It seems to have disappeared.

Needacrystalball · 03/07/2012 20:18

I've noticed that it keeps coming and going? Very odd.

Water, if you want to chat more openly, feel free to pm :)

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