Estranged from parents - in need of support

[Lottapianos]

Both parents are narcissists. I'm in the process of trying to disengage myself from them and boy it's hard work. I see a therapist every week and have done for the past 2 years -it's agony at times but helping more than I can say. I'm starting to see clearly how much emotional abuse there was within our family and the anger I feel towards them knocks me sideways at times. I also feel desperately sad for both of them - they are the most miserable, lonely, empty people I know. I'm starting to accept that it's not my place to make them happy but it's still hard.

I have gone from phoning them once a week (feeling obligated to do so and dreading it every time) to phoning them about once a month, maybe less. I almost never hear from them in between these calls. I last saw them in March, last visited their home in November. They live in Ireland, I live in UK. I am healthy, I have a good job, I am financially independent, I have great friends, I have a fabulous DP but I still feel that the best thing that ever happened to me was getting away from them and making my own life in another country.

I feel like I would like to see them again, but actually I think what I'm missing is that idea of what I would like them to be. And I'm slowly starting to realise that I won't ever have the parents I would like to have.

I think I'm slowly becoming estranged from them and I'm frightened by how ok it feels in one way. In other way I feel terribly guilty and have doubts that I am doing the 'wrong' thing (I am well acquainted with FOG!) I would really value words of wisdom from people who have been in a similar situation

Thanks so much for reading this

What kind of words of wisdom are you looking for?

It sounds like you are very insightful, and going through this process very carefully and consciously. I relate to everything you describe in your post, although my estrangement from my parents was more abrupt.

It feels OK because it is OK. It also feels terrible because it is a great sadness not to have adequate parents.

There's never any neat resolution to such relationships, because that would have to pass via an acknowledgement by the dysfunctional parents of their responsibility in hurting their children, and they are simply not capable of that - if they were, they wouldn't be dysfunctional parents in the first place. The best resolution you can come to is the one you're living right now: acknowledging the dysfunction for what it was, accepting that this is who they are, and deciding for yourself how much or how little you choose to have them in your life.

Lots of people going through similar on the Stately Homes thread, if you want a place to chat with like-minded people.

Thank you HotDAMNlifeisgood - I love your username!

I guess I'm looking for some reassurances, just as you have written, that putting this distance between myself and my parents is not a barbaric thing to do. I feel terribly guilty about not doing what they expect me to do. When I write about them on here, I'm always half-expecting someone to come on here and flame me for being so heartless and such a cruel daughter, because deep down I feel those things about myself. But at the same time, I can feel myself changing, and becoming much more comfortable with the idea of putting myself first. I often feel very lonely because it seems like everyone else has such a loving, supportive, positive relationship with their parents (I know that's not really true for everyone!) and I feel very isolated. So hearing from people who are a bit further along the journey helps me so much.

My BIL is a narcissist. Distance is key; am feeling a lot happier now he has cut us off cos he was a nightmare when he did deign to speak to us.

In my experience it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist; the goalposts keep being moved all the time. They can be verbally nasty and cruel to boot. They are also really crappy gift givers. They do not bring anything at all positive into your life; the best thing you can do is to stay away from them both physically and emotionally.

Would recommend looking at the Stately Homes thread as well as reading the website entitled Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers.

If you've never read "Children of the Self Absorbed" by Nina Brown it is well worth a read too.

"Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward and"When you and your mother cannot be friends" by Victoria Secunda are also worth a read.

Has anyone flamed you for being heartless and cruel, here or in RL?

Even if someone did, does their opinion matter?

Like you, a part of me believes I am a heartless and cruel daughter. But interestingly enough, despite the taboo I thought existed in society about estrangement from one's parents, almost none of the RL people I've spoken to about my choice to cut contact with my parents has reacted with horror or rejection. Only one friend did, and from what I observe, I believe that she has a narcissistic father of her own, so her rejection of my choice is most likely a reflection of her own unresolved issues with her own family.

As is any person's perception of any issue, frankly. You and I know we have a sore called "deeply held belief that we must be awful and unlovable people/daughters". So any person who reacts negatively to our estrangement from our parents will be poking that sore. As long as you remain aware, as you clearly are, that you carry this issue, you'll be able to process the pain of any triggers and not let them get to you too much.

You seem to want to get to a point where you're 100% ok with being estranged from your parents. I'm sorry to say that that probably won't ever happen, and if you accept that it will always be a sore spot to a certain extent I think it makes it easier to deal with. Essentially you have lost your parents and you have had to let go of the idea that you had that one day they would be the parents you wanted them to be. Doing that involves something like a grief process, and just like with the death of a loved one, you never become 100% ok with that loss, but you do start to feel the pain a bit less over time and become more comfortable with the idea. The difficulty is that unlike with death this loss you've suffered is not final, there is always that underlying voice luring you back and telling you you can make them love you. That adds a whole other layer to the process because I think to some extent that voice will always be there. With a death, the person is gone and you have to come to terms with that, with the death of an idea or a hope there is never that finality which makes accepting the loss that much harder.

Take your time. It is a tough process. I have drastically reduced contact with my parents and it has done wonders for me but I still have wobbly moments and I still find myself playing out the old routines from time to time. It's hard, but I think it's worth it.

I'm completely estranged from my father and almost estranged from my mother just bloody can't get rid of her I suppose I'm holding onto the belief she'll change and I can give her one last chance but each chance she gets and ruins closes the door a little bit more.

I don't care what other people think, they aren't in my position and I may be cold and heartless but it is saving my sanity and allowing me to find people I like and who like me back.

I wish you a happier future than the past.

Thank you all so much. I have read 'Toxic Parents' and identified with loads of it - I will definitely look into getting "Children of the Self Absorbed" and "When you and your mother cannot be friends". It just helps so much to know that there are other people going through the same thing.

HotDAMN, you're right, the only people who have flamed me have been my siblings and they obviously have their own issues! It's just that part of my parents' legacy is that I have huge issues with doubting myself and need a lot of support from others to validate my feelings. This is slowly changing through therapy but it's still a problem for me. I need to learn that feelings are just a part of life and nothing to be frightened of.

CailinDana, I understand what you're saying about the grieving process and how hard it is because the relationship is still ongoing, not final like a death would be. I guess I'm just feeling exhausted from the whole thing and sick of feeling anxious all the time and thinking of my parents all the bloody time. Even though I have reduced contact, they take up so much space in my head and I think about them about 100 times a day. I gues there's a lot of information to process but it wears me out at times.

I can feel myself changing, and becoming much more comfortable with the idea of putting myself first.

Good for you. Keep it up - forever.

I often feel very lonely because it seems like everyone else has such a loving, supportive, positive relationship with their parents (I know that's not really true for everyone!) and I feel very isolated.

I hear you with this Lotta. Additionally I have found that very few people have been able to understand - or tolerate - the grief that I have felt in accepting my family for what it is and in accepting that I will never have the parents I needed. But that grief has eased and I no longer feel afraid of isolation.

I guess that putting myself first is starting to feel more comfortable and the isolation of being in close contact with a family that puts me last has started to seem way scarier.

It is a very exhausting process so go easy on yourself. There's nothing wrong with a slow process that gently drifts towards little or no contact with your parents.

Thanks MmeDefarge for your kind words. I had a really positive session with my therapist yesterday where I said out loud for the first time that I feel ok about not being in touch with my parents. That is, it feels strange and I have moments of guilt, but overall I'm ok with it. I really feel that I need space from them right now so just going to go with it. I'm glad things have got better for you

Do you have DC?
It really helps me to feel proud that I am being a good mother by protecting my dc from not having my father in my life. I never want to give him the chance to make them feel the way he made me feel.

He blew his chance to be a grandparent when he was an abusive, self absorbed father. Luckily he doesn't give a shit anyway, which makes it easier.

As time goes by I hope you will get increasingly strong, and when you feel a pang of that old habitual guilt, then dump it back where it belongs. Any shame hanging around doesn't belong to you, it belongs to those that hurt you when you were dependant on them.

cailin great post, I agree completely. Loss = pain

Well done you. I only found out about narcissism just before December despite having lived it my entire life. First with my parents and then choosing my H despite being warned explicitly by a qualified therapist not to marry him.

Can I give you two pieces of advice? Keep working on your own sense of self, so that self-absorbed behaviour around you is spotted the moment it happens (you see, we are blind to it when we are unaware). Too many of those mini moments, ditch him.

Then, look at the family of whichever person you are with, very very carefully. Try to marry into a happy family, because you don't just marry a person, you marry their family as well. And how lovely a warm family is. Not perfect, just at ease with eachother!

When I met my MIL, I should have run. I really really should have. I ignored SO many red flags. I was working on my own family, but put blind faith into my partner. Sorry, lots of sorrow and regret here.

PS good luck in your efforts to get away. I think the key is giving up all hope that you will get what you wish and hope for - their attention, their care, their 'seeing' you. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

It is also completely futile to try and communicate with them (get them to hear you). All that happens are rows where they defend themselves and attack you and you feel even worse than if you had never tried. They will NEVER acknowledge the truth of what you are saying, they will NEVER hear you, they will NEVER apologise, they will arrange other members to condemn you as the 'bad one' if you try. Save your breath!

I broke off w my parents and never spoke to them again (back with my sisters etc and only now they are started to allude to maybe their parents were't that great but I would never push it).

You get to a stage where you really do see that they are toxic to you and so no contact is for your protection, not to punish them. When they died I had been 'killed off' I wasn't even mentioned, but do you know what I don't even care. I had got it (given up all hope) years ago so I don't even call it 'disinherited'.

This is very hard and involves a lot of grief and sorrow. But Gd put you on this earth as a precious being, not to be squashed by others. Better you get this sooner rather than later.

Good luck, all the best and we really do know what it feels like.

'Try to marry into a happy family, because you don't just marry a person, you marry their family as well'

Too late! We're not married (very anti-marriage for many reasons) but my DP's family are very similar to mine. He has little contact with his parents (no siblings) and is very aware of the dynamics within his family and how destructive they are. He feels enormous guilt at times but doesn't become as crippled by it as I do.

I don't have DCs and have no plans to have any. Neither of us want to become parents - again, for a lot of reasons, but I'm sure part of it is that I have had a really unhealthy model of parent-child relationships growing up. I work with young children now and see lots of parents interact with their children in really lovely ways, and I'm sure it can be a wonderful relationship if it's something you want. I'm looking forward to being an auntie one day hopefully but frankly feel terrified and trapped at the thought of being a mother. I'm 32 so it feels like almost everyone around me is pregnant/thinking about becoming pregnant and that adds to my feelings of isolation sometimes.

'I think the key is giving up all hope that you will get what you wish and hope for - their attention, their care, their 'seeing' you. THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN'

I really can't hear this enough I'm starting to believe it but every time someone confirms it to me, I can feel myself getting stronger and the guilt becoming less overpowering

Lottapianos..I am going through something similar myself and find the advice up thread to be spot on.
I recently spent time with my parents and family (again) and after fighting with my kids for the first time in months while there, I realised that they are never going to change, I will always be the outsider and I will always have to protect myself around them.

You are not odd; it takes enormous courage to break away from your family because it is very scary to do so.
It takes a person with great insight to be able to stand back and see what their own family dynamic is (much easier to see it from outside).
As cailindana says it is a grief that has to be processed like any other.

Please read books on narcissism: Eleanor Payne is good, and so is Paul Meier. As he says, your parents are only 2 in 6 billion on the planet. If my parents looked down on you, would you value it? Likewise, yours to me? So put their devaluing into perspective.

Thank you porridgelover - it's so hard accepting that they will never change, and letting go of the hope, but I know that is the key to moving forward. Good luck with your situation

Thanks for recs abitwobblynow - I have read 'Toxic Parents' which I found really useful so I'm looking forward to reading some more