Stay or Go?

[AllWrungOut]

I?ve been with DH for 10 years. We got together young (20/21) and he kind of moved in without any real discussion, it just sort of happened, and within a year I was pregnant. During my pregnancy I caught him texting his ex girlfriend. He swore it was only texting and nothing more. DS was born, DH moved jobs and was out of the house from 7am to 7pm working. Within months I found e-mails on his phone to a woman at work which were although not necessarily openly flirty, I felt were very very friendly and I felt jealous. I honestly don?t think anything happened between them and brushed my feelings under the carpet. He left that job and set up his own business which involved travelling a lot. Basically for the first few years of DS life I felt I did absolutely everything, all the childcare, all the housework and I worked part time.

Please don?t flame me, around 5 years ago I had an affair which lasted about 8 weeks. DH found out, I ended it. We went to one session of Relate which was shite so we didn?t go back and kind of bumbled along and gradually as DS got older and things got a bit easier it all seemed ok.

But really things aren?t ok for me and now it?s come to a head. I?m deeply unhappy and I think I have been for a long time. I think life events, or ?stuff? has distracted me from the unhappiness. I have a list as long as my arm of incidents and instances which I hold so much anger and resentment towards DH for and I can?t let any of it go. He's grown up a lot since then, he is a different person and when I look at these incidents objectively some of them seem so petty. He has managed to forgive me for an affair and move on.

I feel I basically gave up my life to look after our child to enable DH to work and then de-stress when he wasn?t working. He had all the free time he wanted to pursue hobbies and interests and friendships and I had none. Whilst he didn?t stop me from doing this, he didn?t really encourage me either. I was too exhausted when DS was a baby/toddler to seek out any baby groups or activities to join. Looking back I suspect I may have had PND. I should have been more proactive in securing myself some leisure time but it was all such a struggle.

So here I am? I find myself now with literally no friends, no hobbies, nothing other than DH and DS, and work. And it's not enough. I need to get myself a life.

We are currently back at Relate trying to work things out but to be honest my heart is not in it. DH is trying so hard, he really is. I feel that as I have withdrawn over the years, our relationship has done a complete turn. When we first got together I had him on a pedestal, I adored him, I couldn?t believe that someone like him would want to be with me and I let him take over my life and become my life. And now it?s the other way round, he tells me I?m his world, he?ll do anything to make this work, he loves me more than anything. I feel numb, smothered, claustrophobic, the classic ?I love you but I?m not in love with you?. There?s no spark, I love him like a brother or a friend. I?m going along Relate because I feel I should, because I think we should try everything before I consider breaking up our home, break DH?s heart and turn DS?s world upside down.

I don?t know what I?m asking really. I?m so confused, and scared of ending the relationship but scared of staying. Do I carry on in the relationship whilst also trying to make a life for myself outside of it? That seems quite selfish. Will it improve things, make me feel happier and more fulfilled, help our relationship, or am I just flogging a dead horse?

Any advice would be gratefully received.

I think you have a chance here to stop drifting and consciously choose to control your own destiny. I'm sure the whole living together, pregnancy, giving up work, mumsy lifestyle things felt right at the time but, when you put your life in someone else's hands, it's a massive risk. The affair, I think, was an aborted attempt to regain some control. Whatever you decide now will shape the rest of your life one way or another but hopefully it'll be your decision and not something that is foisted upon you. Good luck with whatever you decide.

There's a lot going on in your post, but some things really stand out.

You say you put him on a pedestal when you met him and couldn't believe he wanted you, which suggests you had fairly low esteem to start with. Then you say that you uncovered two separate inappropriate relationships, which must have been a further knock to your esteem, especially the one that happened during your pregnancy. I agree your affair might have been a way of exerting control but it also sounds as though it might have been a way of punishing your husband for your earlier hurts, without telling him directly that you were still hurting. Maybe you used a covert act like the affair to do that?
And yet even that doesn't seem to have produced a discussion between you, beyond a single Relate session.

What next stands out is that you don't seem to discuss important issues as a couple. You both drifted into a committed relationship and even your decision to have children together doesn't sound like an active decision. The three infidelities seem to have been left unresolved and there is no sense that you sat down and discussed how you would as parents, combine work and leisure with family life.

If you both learnt to communicate better, there might be a chance of saving this marriage but this needs to be done alongside your own efforts (and his support) for you building a life independent of being a wife, mother and worker. Why do you have no friends, for example? I can see that if he works long hours and you have no childcare, hobbies outside the home might be challenging, but one of the things you might have to revisit is his working pattern, or finding some good local childcare/babysitting so that you can go out on your own and as a couple.

Some of your resentments seem to be silent ones. E.g. you say that if you'd wanted to go out he wouldn't have stopped you, but he didn't encourage it either. But this also sounds like it was your choice not to get out and make friends all these years, notwithstanding the early PND period. Likewise, if you abandoned your childhood friends for this relationship, that was a choice you made and is not something you can blame anyone else for.

So one of the things you perhaps need to work on is to learn how to articulate what you want, when you want it - and taking responsibility for your own needs.

I think this is classic for a woman in your situation - life just happens and then you wake up one day feeling as you do.

What I personally would suggest is this - get yourself a life, of your own choosing, and one that you find deeply fulfilling - and leave your relationship on the shelf for now.

Your primary upset seems to have to do with your own life, so why not sort that first and then see if the man you say is generally great and so on, starts to be attractive to you again?

I kind of admire women who have had their kids young as it leaves them with enough time to get a career and their hobbies sorted. I find myself childless at 37, but with the whole career / traveling / having a great time behind me, and I wish I had done it the other way round sometimes.....

I think - get yourself a collection of magazines and cut out words / pages / words that attract you for whatever reason. Give it no thought at all, just cut out what you like.

Try and stick it all somewhere and make a collage. Then think about what the picture tells you about what you are attracted to, admire, what more of or want to do or say, or be.

I'd say get stuck into that right now, and think 'What would I do if I couldn't fail and could afford it all and had the time to do???' This will give you complete freedom to daydream. At no stage must considerations like 'I can't because....' be factored in. It is all about the heights to scale at this stage.

Your mind will get to whirring, about your own self and your own life, and you deserve that. I have seen it a million times, at work, what you are going through, and you will make something of yourself, I am sure of it. Just make sure you do go for something, and that you choose what makes your heart feel happy. Don't be faltered by issues or insecurities you have - we all have them and we can all find a way to get through them.

Like I say, I'd forget the man for now, and get stuck into getting a life. The one you have always wanted. Lucky you you have a man at home who will most likely help you with childcare (or he should start now, and you should make him) - and also one last thing - spend more time alone, thinking, and also go out more and daydream it all into reality.

Good luck!

I relate a lot to your post. You sound very like what I would have been like had I stayed with my sons dad, who I split up with when he was about 18 months.

I don't feel I have a lot of wisdom to offer (although am watching this thread with interest) but I will say that I think you should pursue having your own life, interests, friends, hobbies etc. While these things can take time to build up, I have a feeling that when you have the above, you will realize that what little you feel for your DH isn't enough and will most probably have the impetus and strong desire to leave him. Sometimes it's only when we hang out with others and gain perspective and a sense of self esteem and enjoyment from having friends and hobbies that we can see clearly enough to move forward. You sound like you've been in a holding pattern for years and are just now allowing yourself to break free and think about what you want from life. That's great!

Thanks everyone for your comments and advice. A lot for me to mull over and I really appreciate it.

Cogito ? Yes I feel now is my chance to take control of my life. It?s now or never. I can?t drift along like this for another 10 years, I won?t let myself.

Sternface ? You got it exactly right, we don?t discuss anything important. DH is very much a head in the sand kind of person and I?m a sulker. Not a good combination and part of our counselling is focussing on changing that behaviour and actually communicating with each other. The no friends thing is something I ultimately have responsibility for. DH did play a part in me letting my friends drift and restricting or making my opportunities to meet new people difficult, but I accept that I?m ultimately responsible for allowing him to do that, and I?m now trying to address it.

Something2say ? I love that idea of the collage of what I want, kind of like cosmic ordering which I have done a bit of reading up on. I do have to take some time to think about what I want and need in life, because at the moment it?s all a bit vague ? I just know I want more/different to what I have now.

HepHep ? That?s what I?m struggling with at the moment. If I do develop this great new life and I decide that I don?t want to be with DH any more, I will feel tremendously guilty for ?using? him (by staying with him) until I get myself sorted. On the other hand I care deeply for him and if there?s a chance that we can get that spark back then I feel like I should at least try. So much was bad in our early relationship, he really is like a different man now but I don't know if it's just too late for me. I read a few threads on here and think "that's definitely me 5 years ago". I suspect if I had known about Mumsnet and posted on here during the first 2 or 3 years of DS's life then I would have been told to 'leave the bastard' .

Anyway, I feel I?ve made a little start in the last couple of weeks. I?ve joined a local gym and gone along to a few of the classes. I?m going to start an evening class in September at college, I?ve always fancied a go a dressmaking, or at least learning how to use my sewing machine which I got last Christmas and is gathering dust or doing something like cake decorating ? unleashing my creative side!!

I find it takes me a while to make friends and I?m not expecting it to happen overnight but it?s a start. I think I probably come across as not very easy to talk to, I do struggle a bit with social anxiety, especially at the moment I think I?m just the most uninteresting person with nothing to say due to having so little going on in my life but I?m hoping the more I do and get involved in, the easier I?ll find it. So if anyone has any tips on how to seem approachable and make friends please feel free to share!

I think it sounds like you have, and have always had low self esteem. Objectively speaking I wouldn't class texting an ex (unless it was an inapropriate text) or a friendly e-mail as inappropriate behaviour. The problem there is you felt it was an neither of you dealt with the reasons why at the time.

To be honest it seems as though you are trying to avoid communicating as well because it seems as though you'd rather leave than communicate. Going to relate is not likely to help if you don't want to be there.

I also think it is worrying the level of responsibility you place on your h for how you life has turned out too. If it wasnt discussed at the time and you didn't make your feelings known either because you weren't sure what they were or couldn't make them known that is not his responsibility. I think what you say about him not letting you do x y z is your responsibility for allowing him to not let you is you still blaming him.

It sounds as though you have lived your life totally providing for him and that may be down to your feelings about yourself. Now you are unhappy you think it is his fault but is it really down to him or actually because of how you relate to each other?

You can't punish him for how he was many years ago but if it is affecting you it is because you haven't dealt with it at the time. I think some individual counselling would be beneficial for you as it sounds like you are unhappy with your life and yourself as well as your marriage.

Thanks Offred. The texts to the ex were inappropriate. In a nutshell he was telling her he missed her and he wouldn?t ever feel about anyone the way he felt about her, she was very derogatory about me even though she didn?t know me and had never met me, the two of them joked about me getting fat during pregnancy, etc. I confronted him at the time and he promised to cut all contact with her, which as far as I know he did, but you?re right in that we never dealt with the reasons why he was doing what he was doing, what was wrong with our relationship that he felt the need to do it, or how we were both going to make things better.

I?m not trying to avoid communicating now, although I will admit that after 10 years of our relationship being non-communicative about anything that really matters, I find all this openness and discussion and communication uncomfortable and difficult. I?m hearing things I don?t like hearing and I?m telling DH things which I?m sure he doesn?t like hearing. It?s hard work and I?m questioning whether what we will have left at the end of it all is worth it. Some days I really hope we can build on the good things that we have, other days, quite frankly I can?t be arsed.

Perhaps on some level I am blaming DH for how certain things in my life have turned out, I?ll have to think more about that. When I said it was my responsibility for allowing him to stop me meeting friends ? that?s just how I see it. For example on almost every occasion when I had a night out with friends arranged he suddenly (like an hour before I was due to go out) had to work late on that night, or had to take a customer out for a meal last minute, or had forgotten I was going out and remembered he had arranged something himself which couldn?t possibly be missed. And I allowed that to stop me going out. Maybe what I should have done when I knew I was going out was sorted a babysitter and made sure I went out, instead of relying on him to get home on time and look after his child? Looking back, yes I do feel a bit like he sabotaged my social life. As I said in my first post, at the time I was exhausted, it was all such a struggle, I was doing all of the childcare, all of the house stuff and it was easier to let the friendships slide. But I do take responsibility for that. I let the friendships slide.

I?d love some individual counselling. Waiting lists are ridiculously long and private is too expensive at the moment. When we are done at Relate and have the spare £50 a week that we?re currently paying out, it?s something I?ll look into.

Maybe what I should have done when I knew I was going out was sorted a babysitter and made sure I went out, instead of relying on him to get home on time and look after his child?

Actually, reading that back, there I go, brushing it under the carpet/not communicating properly again. What I should have done is talked with DH and asked him if he had some kind of problem with me having a social life and pointed out that I felt like he was sabotaging it .

If you'd arranged to go out at a time when he would reasonably be home and said he would, then yes that was selfish behaviour on his part and it would have been better to tackle it head-on.

But thinking back, were there ever occasions when you agreed to go out with friends, knowing full well that he wouldn't get back at the time you'd agreed to meet them.....and you then failed to remind him nearer the time until as expected, he turned up late and you couldn't go out? Because deep down, you didn't want to go out and make an effort with friendships, but it was easier to blame him for that?

And then there's the affair. You must have put some effort into that friendship and had some time out. Did you ever find out why you had an affair? Did your husband?

No Stern, nights out were always arranged for reasonable times when he would normally be home. I would have even got DS to bed before I went out and gave him plenty of reminders. Then I'd usually get a phonecall at about 7pm when he was due home, with a reason why he couldn't get home. It really is that cut and dried. No subconscious not wanting to go out on my part. Eventually I found myself not getting invited out (because they thought I wouldn't turn up anyway?) and kinda gave up.

The affair took place at work - absolutely no time away from home when I wouldn't normally be away from home. Lunchtimes, half days annual leave, daytime 'conferences' . Not proud of my behaviour at all. Again a half arsed attempt at talking when DH found out but no, I never really looked at myself and my motivations for the affair and neither did DH. That's another thing we are talking through at Relate currently.

I think you have a complicated relationship with blame! If he actually stopped you from going out by deliberately not coming home then he should accept responsibility for that shouldn't he? There's no "I allowed it" the most you did was not confront him about it.

It sounds as though there has been very poor communication all along and some of it, because you are telling the story, is clearly down to a lack of self-confidence/self-esteem. What is unclear is whether your lack of confidence/self esteem is down to or influenced by him and it sounds as though it may have been.

If you stand any chance then you need, I think, to go through the whole of your relationship bit by bit and work through all the feelings that have been bottled up and become twisted. You seem to have become accustomed to not feeling so it will be difficult. It may end up not being worth it. I really think you need to go on the waiting list for some counselling because it seems for whatever reason yourself is very tied up in him.

(and I'm wondering whether he has actually become a wonderful husband now because he has managed to completely make you into a little subsidiary of him with very little independent thought or life)

In some ways you sound quite similar though. You say he has always had his head in the sand and you've been a sulker, but you both seem to have put your heads in the sand about the infidelity breaches on both sides and it seems that you've both been sulking to an extent about grievances that have never been aired between you.

Your affair sounds as though it was of the covert 'punishment' variety and you say your husband found out about it rather than you ending it and confessing all. Similarly, you seemed to find out about his inappropriate relationships before they went further.

I think all you can do is persevere with the counselling and look at all the different catalysts throughout the relationship. Then see how you feel about each other once you've put some of the communication lessons into practice. I think because your communication as a couple has been so poor, there might be other things that have happened that the other doesn't know about and it would be best to have some no-holds barred honesty now so that everything is out in the open. Best of luck.