Marriage really struggling - would really appreciate some advice and support

[BeechHedge]

I have been with DH 13 yrs, married 9, have DS1 5 and DS2 3.

We have been having a difficult time roughly since DS2 was born, or a bit before. Things are still up & down, but I think the trend is downward.

I've seen how fantastically supportive people can be on here, and I'd really appreciate some thoughts on our situation.

There is no DV or unfaithfulness. I recently read up a bit on EA - maybe a bit of this going on, but I think might be in a cycle of mutual unhelpfulness here rather than a full-blown EA issue from one of us.

DH

• has said he didn't really want the kids and they have caused him to not be able to lead the life he wants. (yes - I know it's a classic bad sign ). He's said this three times over recent months - each time the words are out his mouth he's already explaining that that's not really what he means - but it's certainly an element of how he is feeling
• is obsessed with his sporting hobby, will spend both weekend days, bank holidays, family holiday days doing it when possible. It's a weather-dependent thing so not feasible all the time - but for example in March & April he was out almost every weekend. He gets in a very black mood when the weather thwarts him too much, or he performs badly. He would almost always choose this sport over spending family time
• doesn't pull his weight with domestic chores etc. Knows this but just says, essentially, sorry but that's how it is. Perceives my asking him to do stuff as nagging / some kind of macho battle for who is doing more domestically.
• is good with the kids, they get on well - but he doesn't pull his weight with childcare (especially the mundane bits)

I

• have let us get in to the situation where DH is not pulling weight domestically
• actually don't mind the time spent on the hobby (which he clearly gets lots of enjoyment from and is an interesting, healthy pursuit) - but I do mind that he spends time away from the family doing this AND then does not fully engage with family life when he is around. (Also do resent the assumption that I'll cover the childcare / family stuff any time his hobby beckons - the assumption rather than the doing of it)

• found life quite difficult after DS2 - maybe a bit of PND but definitely just exhausted and felt a bit de-selfed and angry. DS2 was terrible sleeper for first two years - DH does no night-time parenting. Definite resentment over this, which is now in past. But it was a very difficult sleep-deprived time.

Situation is also more complex...

We run a business together - led by DH and in his professional area of expertise. I left a fairly high-flying career after DS1 born. Now work in the business ~3.5 days/week. Find it very difficult to work with DH. In my work role I am clearly a major disappointment to him. Business is young, growing, very hard work, in some ways successful but longer term outlook still very uncertain. We have taken only a nominal salary for last two years. We get WTC etc due to low income - also did have ample savings to allow us to live like this, but now have all savings invested in business. We have several employees and ongoing contracts - so if we fail / close the business it's all going to be quite messy. If we can get through the early years, business could be nicely successful and a real achievement and provide us a decent income. All this obviously rather stressful. Have recently tried working from home more, rather than office with DH. This has improved things.

DH has been depressed in the past, does have difficulties with low moods. He may well be depressed now. I have asked him in the past to seek help from GP - he has thrown this back at me as uncaring / passing the buck. I don't think I'm particularly good at supporting him when he is depressed - can just never seem to say the right thing.

We moved across the country just after DS1 was born. I have built up a good support network of friends (mostly other mothers that I've got to know). DH less so. Neither of us has 'old' friends or close family nearby. Actually, I've started to lose touch with old friends - the ones that I thought I'd stay in touch with over a lifetime - because I've found it difficult to have our difficulties 'on show' to them.

I haven't yet talked to my Mum about reality of how things are. I don't know how to bring it up.

Feels like it's just so difficult with strained marriage, everything riding on really hard-work and uncertain business. Is there any hope? What can / should I do?

I have namechanged. This post is very long but slightly cathartic to write down.

I do agree that entitlement is definitely an issue for us

Everything is so tangled up with the work stuff being involved. For example - say that I am crap at my job. He's - the boss and is going to have to address that. But I'm also married to him...

We have worked out how to get better at this over time (for example, clarifying that he is the boss - especially in the office with other employees involved. for example (recently) that we need some physical separation from each other). But it remains difficult, and as the business is young/growing/changing then we have to keep adapting.

BTW - I'm not crap at my job. But I'm not a superstar all of the time either.

We can all get nostalgic about the freedom of youth at times. Having lived with a depressive person, in my experience, there was a tendency to outwardly blame everything around for lack of freedom or satisfaction and at the same time not accept that, as we are to a degree masters of our own destiny, so we have had a hand in creating that which is bad around us.
It's simple for him to blame the kids - though he made them too? "You are clearly a major disappointment to him" at work - did he not decide to employ you? Some depressives have a hard time accepting their own role in things.
I'm not offering a solution to depression here as I don't know what that would be or if there is one, just that I understand how frustrating it can be when living with someone who is.
If he's a methodical, organised type I think the calendar idea is good. You at least need to pin him down to a specific time slot allocated to family time in exchange for not nagging him about his hobby so much. I think it is important that he has his hobby as a physical outlet, given his pent up anger issues, he sounds like he needs it.
Jobwise, it may help if you can get your old career back on track as that is also something for you to help restore your own identity with, and may alleviate some financial issues - and he may also come to appreciate the input you had to the business once you're no longer there ;-)

That sounds perfectly normal BeechHedge and not disappointing at all. The thing that worries me is that he seems to be running away from sorting out the issues, or blaming it on you. A relationship can't work if only one person is working at it.

Does he even acknowledge that you have got problems?

sgb yes. But he's not always been like that - or, maybe, that never had cause to express itself pre-DC. And 'intellectually' he doesn't think that (or want to think that) - we have explicitly discussed in the past. But he does act like that.

And I feel like I've got a fairly good feminist consciousness, but yet I've still got myself in to this situation. More fool me.

DH

1. has said he didn't really want the kids and they have caused him to not be able to lead the life he wants

2. He would almost always choose this sport over spending family time

3. doesn't pull his weight with domestic chores etc. Knows this but just says, essentially, sorry but that's how it is

I

4. have let us get in to the situation where DH is not pulling weight domestically

OP if you take control of no. 4 and stop allowing him to opt out of childcare and housework, then you will have the solution to 1, 2 and 3 in as much as he will appreciate the children, appreciate it when he has free time to do his hobby and appreciate all that you do.

BeechHedge look at what his actions, not his words.

But how Fairenuff when he won't even talk about it. And why is it up to her to make him look after his family and pull his weight domestically. He should be doing it and the fact he isn't speaks volumes.

Yes he acknowledges problems. Definitely thinks that it is me that needs to change far more than he does.

And to be completely open - I was not a nice/easy person to be around some of the time in DC2's first two years. Lots of anger in me then, and I had plenty of sleep-deprivation-induced issues. But I feel like I really worked at that. And feel like I've been back to 'normal' post DC2 for probably 18 months now.

It isn't up to her to make him do anything.

It's uip to her to decide if she is going to continue like this or change things.

It is up to you to change OP. He isn't going to, that is clear. You need to tell him exactly what you expect him to do and what will happen if he doesn't.

Fairenuff - I generally agree, but the how is quite a major issue.

I'm going to go to bed but really appreciate input from all and will be back tomorrow. Am also going to have a look at the depression angle more tomorrow.

The 'how' is not so difficult really OP.

You just need to have a good think about what you think is fair and reasonable and what you think you would be happy to accept in your relationship. Everyone is different, so you only have to think about yourself here.

Then you tell him that you would like a discussion and pick a time that suits you both. The discussion is just that, no shouting, swearing, blaming or storming off. If you can't do this together then you could do it with a relationship counsellor.

You tell him what you need. For example, a lie in one day at the weekend, split household chores, a weekend away with friends twice a year, whatever. If he doesn't agree, you talk and compromise.

If you can't compromise you talk about the alternative, going separate ways. If it has to come to this, you make arrangements about childcare and finances, etc.

If you carry on as you are so will he. It's your choice.

Oh, he thinks that you ought to change, does he? I bet by that he means 'eat shit and smile' ie stop trying to behave like a human being when actually you are a cross between domestic appliiance and domestic pet.

I am no expert, but on the domestic chore front I could empathise completely!
Logic reveals that you are taking on two of the most emotionally, physically and financially taxing jobs - running a business and raising kids!

DH and I had been squabbling a lot over domestic chores as we were both tired and got into I did this and you did not mode quite quickly! still do

Resentment at being the sole chef, planner of travel, buyer of clothes/shoes, manager of DS childcare arrangements, built quite quickly. DH complained that I was floats tired and sulky. So we sat and listed tasks to be completed each day, divided them and stuck to it. It works to some degree at keeping squabbles to a min.

The longer you carry on on silence whilst muttering in your head, the harder it will be to work resentment out of the equation.

Hth

Ever occur to you that you may have had a lot of built up resentment and after DC2 was born your hormones forced you to express how upset you were at his selfishness?

Lurking - yes, possibly true

Fairenuff - I think that's key - articulating a description of what I would be happy to accept in the relationship, which will include a practical list of chore splits, lie-ins, hobby management etc etc - and then having a consequence that I will follow through on if it does not happen. And I do need to address the hurdle of being willing to leave / get him to leave if it doesn't improve. I think psychologically/emotionally I'm not actually prepared to do that, even though I think I ought to be.

BeechHedge, I can see two sides to this. On the one hand, you clearly do love your husband even if you find him frustrating and want to work as a team to fix stuff, however, on the other hand, I don't see him doing the same. Everything happens around him: his hobby, his business built around his expertise (in which you are a bit player) and his uninterest in the donkeywork of childcare/housekeeping. It's all about him in your house, including trying not to upset him too much etc.

I know there's more to it, and you may well have been angry and nasty with PND, but again, you have had to get over it to support him and do things with him. Personally, I think you have made a mistake giving up a good career to work for him, because in your own admission, you dont' work well together and I think it has undermined your position in the family (you are now a member of staff who annoys him). I couldn't work with my husband and I love him to bits, but he's awful to work with and I just couldn't hitch my future to that wagon. I think you feel you can't say anything now, but actually he could hire someone to do that three days a week. Or the business might fail. But it can't always be down to you to do the things he wants to save his pride and happiness, what about yours?

This is fixable, and the recession is taking a toll on everyone, but I would spend less time with him, not more. I would set boundaries for the hobby, one day a week or whatever you think is reasonable and that's that and expect the similar time off myself. Essentially you have slipped into a model in which his needs and moods are running the family and you need to claw this back calmly and assertively. It may be a shock to him, but he'll adapt if he wants to stay together as a family (my bet is he does).

Mumsyblouse I think that's a good synopsis.

The giving up career thing is maybe not as clear cut as that in how it happened, but you're right on what the outcome has been.

I've started writing my list, as per the discussion above...

I do want to say to him "You know that you have a tendency to depression. We both think that you may be depressed at the moment - or at the very least are finding that life is getting to you. I know it is difficult, but you have to do something to address this. Either you can do that by yourself, and/or by asking me for help, and/or by asking a professional for help".

But I'm a very 'pull your socks up & snap out of it' kind of a person and feel like the discussion is going to end badly. Should I try that discussion, or stick to practical presentation of how family life needs to be?

The first thing you need to point out to him, the key thing is that while he may be your boss in the workplace he is not your boss in the home. As Mumsyblouse says, he needs to be told firmly that the family does not revolve entirely around him, and it's time he started pulling his weight.
Because the longer this situation carries on, of him doing whatever he likes while you pick up after him, the more you wil resent him - and you are quite right to resent someone who is treating you as his servant.

I wouldn't be inclined to address the issue in terms of his depression. He could perceive it as you blaming him for everything.

More like a conversation about the need to arrange things more equitably.

Good luck. It sounds fixable.