What to do when somebody just doesn't care?

[MsFanackerPants]

I think I might have posted here a while ago, possibly under a different name about this.

My future MIL is just...I don't know...semi-hoarder, lazy, undomesticated. Her house is dirty and slowly falling apart. Threadbare carpets, curtains like rags, furniture that's been shredded by the cats. Broken furniture, cat vomit left on the carpets. a study full of leaflets, random bits of paper, so much so you can't get to the bed. Her kitchen is from the 60s, cupboard doors hang off, shelves are collapsed, there is a basket full of potatoes which have 8 inch sprouts coming off them, coffee grounds everywhere, she has something like 38 mugs and will just keep using them until she runs out of clean ones, likewise bowls etc. She manages, just, to put the dishwasher on every few days. The cleaner comes on Thursdays and then the cycle begins again. I feel sorry for the cleaner, she isn't a cleaner she is doing basic tidying up that you would expect a 10 year old to do.

DP's dad/ her husband died last year. But Future MILs behaviour is nothing new, her husband worked full time then would come home and do the vast majority of stuff. Even when DP was little and at primary school she would sulk if she had to wash his school uniform and insist his school shirt would do another week as it wasn't dirty. It's just now she can't get somebody else to do it. So it doesn't get done.

DP is at his wits end. We went for Friday night dinner and when we went to set the table the glasses were filthy and there is not even a sponge or dishcloth to wash them with. She doesn't see the problem, that her house is unhygienic, decrepit and just not a nice place to be.

What do we do. We have tried, we have thrown things away (today was a broken tape player DP had when he was 5, he is 32 now, she had stored in in a cupboard, along with chipped crockery etc). We have offered to help clean, to decorate, to arrange for quotes for repair work. She just either brushes it off, shouts at DP or gets irritable and says "yes yes, I can do it". But she doesn't.
DP feels if we don't go round, we are abandoning her and that we should do it, but so far our efforts have come to nothing and as she doesn't care, why should we put ourselves to so much effort when it just ends up with resentment. I'm still happy for her to come to visit us, for us to cook dinner for her and I do like her, but this situation with her house is getting beyond something we can just gloss over.

Any ideas? Commiserations? Do we get her sister who also is shocked and worried by this to help us stage a mass tidy up/throwing away/intervention? MIL sees a (not very good) counsellor and said counsellor has apparently said we should stop being so mean to her as we are ganging up on her.

Sorry, very long, but so frustrated and sad about this.

How old is your future MIL? Does she go out to work? Other than her visits to a counsellor, does she get out and about, meet up with friends, etc?

Unless she makes it clear that she would welcome some practical help to get on top of her clutter, joining forces with her dsis and staging a clearing up intervention would not be a good idea.

I'm not sure a counsellor would say that! Sounds like is what mil thinks you should do. And why would she discuss this with them, and if she did clearly she didn't explain too well? is she ill or anything?

She might think its ok and enjoy having all her stuff round her. Maybe she doesn't see the dirt. I have relatives like this and it's revolting. My mum takes her own mug:) if she is not I'll, offer to help to clean and put everything back where you found it. Or let s mouse loose which might speed up the process. We treated our relatives as a family joke, even when they were there. People are different..

It's up to her how she lives.

I've got a friend who lives like this. I say, minimise the time you spend there and otherwise ignore it. Its her house, she can live how she likes, but you don't have to go there.

It's her house and it's up to her how she lives in it.
I understand that the prospect of a meal there is very unappetising, so I would advise avoiding that altogether and get take away or just eat elsewhere.
Other than that though, it nobody's concern except her own.
Forget about it.

To those telling OP to butt out - there is mess and there is mess.

I think this level of chaos is indicative of mental health issues.

If MIL's counsellor actually saw her house I'm sure she would draw some very different conclusions.

OP it sounds like your dh has been deeply hurt by his mum's neglect over the years - neglecting to keep him clean and to live in an orderly home would have ramifications I would think? Was he bullied or teased at school, was he afraid/embarassed to have friends over as a teenager? Were there other issues with his mother?

The following website may be helpful to you as it will give you more information as to what hoarding is really about.

It is a mental health issue often linked to OCD.

www.compulsive-hoarding.org

I doubt very much if your partner's mother is seeing any counsellor at all actually.

There is a difference between live and let live and allowing someone you care about to drown in their own mess and misery. It sounds horrible. I agree it is probably linked to mental health issues. Which means it will be very difficult to make any changes, especially as it has gone on for so long.

But I think this attitude of o well it's her house, leave her be is not the right one.

She's been like this for decades.
She has made it clear she doesn't want help.
She is already getting support for her mental health issues.

So yes I do think butt out. I don't see what choice you have anyhow, given that she's made her feelings clear - you can't force her to be tidy.

The only thing I can suggest is that you ask her GP to make a home visit. The 'counsellor' doesn't sound credible. I agree that there is a difference between someone who is messy and someone who has a mental health or other problem. A GP visiting her in situ may achieve nothing at all, or they may alert social services or reach a clinical diagnosis.

I have a diagnosis of compulsive hoarding (how proud am I ) it is part of a bundle of other problems. I can't speak for everyone but I found it very cyclical at it's worst, things get very bad, you have a crippling lucidity, that makes you feel terribly overwhelmed so your depression and denial of the situation ramps up. It is a marker of how stressed I am to look at my side of the bed, if it is full from the wall to the door and I can't even stand on the ground, if I see things that have no inherent value but should be saved (really saved, as if from death) then I need to step back with my treatment while I cope with other aspects of my life. I wouldn't be surprised to see incongruous things - odd, small clean patches (or that had been cleaned at some point), possible themes of items.
I am one whose cleanliness didn't extend to my children, they are always bathed & in clean clothes & sulking about school uniform seems odd to me (keeping every item forever didn't seem odd, I can accept the wrongness now). But I did get very defensive & sulky about my things- verging on panic or rages depending on circs- as it's a difficult relationship to explain. A bit violated?
My point being live & let live doesn't really apply if you suspect problems like these, it is a dangerous way to live, practically, emotionally & physically with the risk of illness or injury.
Approaching it as you would a bone idle, dirty fecker (for comparisons sake) could cause immeasurable issues & if she is getting help (I don't believe she is) then any intervention should be through her current mh support or the council & their associated mh teams. Living like that can kill you. I am a bit confused by your mil though...she sounds a bit, maybe there are other issues going on. I do agree with you that to intervene is actually better than leaving her to rattle around in, what sounds like, an unhealthy level of filth.

I'm messy...and have hoarder tendancies....it's only because I have DC that I have managed to get a handle on things but I suggest you leave her alone. It is the WORST thing to do to a hoarder...it's mean. Don't eat there if you don't like it...she's an adult and is responsible for herself.

How about having a word with MIL's GP or health visitor? You could ask for a phone consultation with the GP, outlining your concerns. At the least, ask for your concerns to be documented in MIL's medical records.

I've had to intervene with my dad (he has dementia) & it's awful - felt so disloyal but also knew it was the right thing to do xx

Thanks for your responses. The varying view points are pretty much mine and DPs. I think that if she is content with the way she lives, she can live like that, she is a grown up and she can choose what she wants. There is no issue of capacity. I don'twant to and don't have to deal with it and so I won't go there. DP struggles with this part.

MIL is 62, she works as a lecturer very part-time and has a good social life. She drives and has no money worries. Her DH did a lot, but didn't get her to tackle her mess as he wanted a quiet life and not to have to deal with the foot stamping tantrums. DP was a little embarrassed as a child, but it now accutely embarrassed with hindsight. I think it's since we now run our own hosuehold and he sees how other people run their homes, that he realises how different his mum is.

I don't think she is a full on hoarder. She doesn't seem to gather new things or bring more stuff into the house. She isn't bothered by the stuff we have thrown away, which makes me think we could perhaps (without involving her sister) maybe tackle a couple of rooms. She also hasn't started probate, 14 months after her H died and this is something that does need sorting. This we are asking family for help with as they are solicitors and can at least prod her along if not do it.

I think some of it is DP's and my reaction to all the scruffy mismatched stuff, DP does have OCD and mess is very uncomfortable for him, I have depression and anxiety and huge amounts of mess make me feel very down and I have to try really hard not to allow my own clutter take over at home, so I do have an idea of how tough it can be. There is also a degree of our personal aethetics compared to hers. We are trying really hard to ignore the aesthestics bit!

She does see a counsellor who comes to the house, however, I'm not sure how productive it is to keep seeing her. DP adn FutureSIL had some family counselling session with this woman and SIL (who is a counsellor) said that it was less like counsellor, more like really partisan mediation! Counsellor seems more like a friend than a counsellor from what we can deduce.
I'm no psychologst, but when talking with MIL, if you apply transactional analysis, it's as if she is in Child mode all the time, she won't engage in Adult.

DP is seeing her today and is going to gently suggest we help her clean out the study and the cellar (cellar is urgent as her cat is sick and wedged herself behind a load of furniture and boxes and we cannot get to her to give medication!). We won't be asking family to help, unless she expressly says it is ok for her sister will lend a hand. She has mentioned off hand in the past they need to be done, so we are using that as an opening. DP is also going to say, in a non-ultimatum way, that we won't be coming for dinner anymore due to the mess btu that she is always welcome at ours. She is in fact coming to stay with us for a week after she has an operation.

Fingers crossed the discussion goes ok.

Thanks again.

Just to update anybody still reading. DP spoke to MIL last night, after she shouted at him and told him he was exagerataing , being dramatic and making a fuss over nothing. DPasked if us arranging quotes to get the roof fixed and sort out the collapsing patio terrace would help. She said it wasn't that bad. Her retort to DP saying it was quite bad was that she has seen towels on the bathroom floor at SILs house.

So, we are pulling out of helping with this, she has made it clear we are not welcome in that way. So we will continue to havwe her as a guest, to dine out with her and to go with her to relatives and for her to come to my relatives, but we will not be going back to her house until she asks us to help her with it.

Has her counsellor actually seen her house?

TBH you can't change her, and you and your DP sound as though you are equally extreme but on the opposide end of the scale.

I find it incredible that people can live like that, but plenty do and so long as she is not a danger to herself you HAVE to butt out and stop nagging her.

However, you can just refuse to go there. Do it in a jokey nice way, but say 'No mum, you come to us for Sunday lunch - we kind of lose our appetite at your house.'

This will get worse when you have a baby though..... she just needs to be told in a gentle way that is she wants you to be comfortable with visiting then she needs to sort herself out. If she can't see there is a problem then fine, but you should not be prepared to go there. And stick to it.

Is she a bit depressed after the loss of her DH?

Oh, crossed posts. Well done!