Can i post something about my relationship with my mum here?

[nameforaday]

my DH is away for the weekend and my mum came to stay overnight. She is a bit stressy (hence why i had her over when DH was away).

I love her/she loves me, we are quite close and he used to look after the kids a lot when they were littkle etc.. And she can be hugely supportive (especially on practical stuff) but usually when we spend any time together since the kids stopped being preschoolers, i end up trying to keep the peace between her and them (boys - 9 and 13) - with her getting offended at their "lack of respect and discipline" calling them naughty, escalating some everyday conflict, and at worst storming off and everyone ending in tears.

... Which is what happened today.

My boys are a handful. Youngest we suspect has adhd and oldest is going through through the usual teenage stuff. We arent a big fighting family but there is a lot of negotiating, reminding and compromise many times a day. I wish they would just do as they are told/expected, be more thouhtful of others/less selfish (and they do sometimes, and they are getting better at it) but i cant judge myslf and DH as failures whenever things are not like that ideal.

My mum has different expectations, and takes it very personally when kids are selfish or non-compliant.

Although we hugged and said goodbye when she left she had also pretty much said "if this is how you are going to raise your kids then i cant be around them". She will probably feel bad about this in the morning and want to make up, but the kids also heard all this and i fear their relatinship with their grandma is breaking a little each time we have such a blow-up.

I'm not sure what i am asking here. It feels like something like should i "break-up" with my mum for the sake of my kids. ... Or should we just muddle through?

I think you need to have a chat with her and say that your kids are your responsibility and, it's up to her how much she sees them. If it stresses her out then she shouldn't see them so much.

You understand that she expects different standards of behaviour from them but you are doing your best.

You would v much appreciate it if, even if she thinks you and they are not getting it all right, she keeps quiet and just leaves the room or smiles. she is putting you in the middle of a dilema and it's too much for you.

i.e. If she doesn't want to see them as much then that's up to her. Don't initiate a "break-up" yourself.

Exactly how badly behaved are they towards her, or in front of her?

Fabulous - yes thats kind of how we left it. But the thought of her drifting away from us makes me

And i guess the thing is the less she sees of them the less used to them she will be, and the less tolerant.

Squeaky -not terrible but not great. The thing that made my mum flip was ....DS1 had already eaten earlier with my mum and was playing on the Xbox and DS2 and were going to eat tea (baked potato and sausage). DS2 really wanted to go and sit with DS1 and kept on and on, and in the end I caved and said ok (...partly because i could see that him going on was winding my mum up and partly because the symbolism of sitting down to eat together didnt seem worth it for the pain of the actual experience).

At which point my mum started telling me off for letting him for caving in which made DS2 so nervous that he dropped his dinner all over the floor!

But to be honest if it hadnt been one thing it would have been another. i remember when my cousins kids were the age mine are now being shocked at the amount of nagging, whining and negotiation involved in every little thing.

To be fair to my mum she does often take her self out of the room if it is getting too much for her.

I think what hsppens is she wants to be practically helpful (like this weekend with DH away) and ends up staying too long till she ges fed up with little things.

What was she like with you when you were growing up OP?

She was hard work. She put everything into parenting, wanted things to be just right, but when it was not she had a temper. It was only when I left home that I realised that things like buyiing shoes, going on holiday or going out did not have to be a big emotional hoo haa.

Me and my sister were more scared of her than my kids are of me and therefore somewhat better behaved - we could sense if we were winding her up and would rein it in. My kids have a
remarkable lack of sense for this and will keep asking for stuff/ negotiating for what they want regardless of how it makes me and DH feel. They don't always get what they want, but they always feel entitled to ask (and ask, and ask) .it is wearing, buy I don't know how to address it without going sown my mums's fear route.

My mum grew up in institutional care, so she really wanted a perfect family life when we were kids but couldn't handle it when things weren't up to her expectations.

If you parent differently to your own parents they can sometimes see that as a criticism of them and how they did it. It sounds like that might be part of your mum's problem - by being so calm you are making her see that her way might have been wrong and it seems like that would be hard for her to take given her background and her attitude to being a parent. Children and family life are obviously a huge source of anxiety for her and that's making her overreact.

Would it be possible to have an honest chat to her about it?

Would you like to change things with your children, or are you happy with how they are?

The situation you describe is ordinary family stuff. It really sounds as if your mum has unresolved issues which is not surprising considering her own childhood. Not fair on your family for her to take it out on them. I think you need to meet your mum on your own and have an honest chat with her putting your point of view across.

Yes we do have honest chats, but it doesn't change what happens in the heat of the moment. When we were talking yesterday I said that you can't expect kids to act the way you want them to (particularly the younger one with SN) and she said "so you are telling me they can't change, well I can't change."

Actually I do think things with the kids can change, but slowly and through the process of growing up. I do wish they were less selfish, and had more self control, but I don't know how to achieve this - I can (and do) stand my ground and get them to DO what I want them to do - homework, teeth brushing, helping, compromising about what they want. But I can't get them to WANT to do those things. My mum sees those conflicts as a sign of things to come as in the slippery slope from sweets to heroin. I hope it is just a phase of development.

I feel for you and I do think that your mum has high expectations and is probably still suffering from a feeling of having no control that stems from the institutional upbringing. However it does seem a little strange to me that your dc don't notice or care about your feelings and as you said, have no sense to rein in their behaviour. Perhaps you do just negotiate with them far too much and they now know that constant relentless whingeing will always get them their own way

Perhaps you need to be slightly more authoritative with the children? As in, if you say no it means no and whinging will never get you anything. I agree you can't make them want things, but I do think, particularly at 13 you can ensure that you are listened to at least most of the time. But you need to pick your battles carefully - there needs to be certain things that you won't compromise on, while everything else is fair game.

As for your mum I'd say she's right that she can't change. Perhaps you do need to cut down the time she spends with the children - for their sake if nothing else. Also you need to tell her, very firmly that telling you off is completely unacceptable - you are a grown adult and undermining you in front of your children is way way off the mark. Don't negotiate on that one. If she isn't happy about your parenting she needs to button her lip or leave.

Great advice from cailin dana

Your Mum being in institutional care is the main point here I think...someone I now grew up in a childrens home and he still, at 40 odd cannot "break the rules" that he was taught in the home.....things like changing into slippers as soon as he comes in....it is so hard because what you describe about the dinner table is so familiar to me....so normal.

Thanks all, I think it is normal family stuff, but unrelenting.

Yes I agree I could/should be more authoritative about some things.

... The 13 yr old does listen most of the time but is starting to push other boundaries.

... I think with the 9 year old we pick our battles, but have got so used to him being strong willed we don't pick too many, so a lot is fair game.

I guess the main difference between my own childhood and my kids was that we knew it was an adults world and we were expected not to demand too much My kids think that the world is for them and are
constantly surprised when limits are placed on them/adults have their own needs. I guess I'm looking for a happy medium between the two.

Apart from the issues your mum has i do think you might need to be more authoritative with the kids.

You mention that they go on and on until you change your mind. I do think if you give in a lot they won't take you seriously. I think its fine to occasionally say that actually you have had a rethink but the majority of the time once you have said no it should stay no. The main reason they go on is because they are used to you giving in.

You also mention negotiating. That's fine sometimes but not everything should be negotiated. You set the rules, not them and they do need to know that.

My own oldest is only six so i don't have experience of children the age yours are so i might be talking rubbish! I do make it clear to her though that she is part of the family and we all have needs, not just her and that she MUST NOT keep on!

I wonder if due to your own rigid childhood you try to be more relaxed and flexible. We are all products of our own childhood and i think it is common to try to avoid the same mistakes.

My own mum was quite soft, in a not setting clear boundaries sort of way. This was because her own mum was strict and perhaps controlling. I think it is common to go to the other extreme. For me though my mums parenting had holes in it, mainly that me and my siblings needed more boundaries and guidance. This was lacking due to my mum not wanting to "tell us" and "dictate to us" about things. But actually we needed that.

Poopoo -

Yes i agree i probably have isoooos too.

Its not so much renegotiating stuff and changing my mind all the time. I do know not to do that. It is more the kids (particularly DS2) dont just take no for an answer and thats the end of it.

So for example yesterday we went to school fair and he had plenty of sweets etc... Later we went into town and as we walked around he asked for crisps 'no youve already had some' sweets 'no you've already had some. A milkshake 'no youve had loads of sweet stuff already', a brownie 'no youve had loads of sweet stuff already' etc...

To DS's mind these are all seperate requests as the thought enters his head as we pass different shops. To me its grinding. But i keep saying no, we get what we need done, he doesnt get any sweets. But it wont stop him asking again next time.

If we were with my mum (or me, but i fight the urge) this would escalate into a big scene about him being spoilt, eating crap etc.. We would probably abandon the errands altogether and all go home in a huff.

I guess if i was more oragnised i woild have not let him have so much at the fair, bought some stuff to take with us and promised him a cupcake If we got all the errands done. But i rarely manage to stage manage things quite so well.

You could try after several "nos" saying "DS, I've already said no, please don't ask me again." and then ignore him if he keeps asking or repeat "I don't want to talk about it any more."

Or the other thing is to try and say "yes" more, even if you do it in a delayed way such as "Yes you can have ice cream, when you've finished your dinner." or "Yes, you can choose one treat to spend your pocket money on, but when it's gone I'm not giving you any more."

(The first one I'm trying with little success on my 3 year old, I'm hoping it will work a bit better when he's older!)

In the situation you describe I would have said "Right DS we're going into town but you have had plenty to eat already so I don't want to hear you asking for anything, ok? I am not going to buy you anything. If you do ask, you'll get a warning and if you ask after that I'll have to take away your tv time/not give you any pudding after dinner/whatever." You have to tell him what you expect, otherwise how does he know how to behave?

Agree with a lot of posts above - you shouldn't be saying he just won't take no for an answer. Make sure there is no alternative answer and he will soon learn

Calindana - to be honest with DS2 he is so impulsive I doubt that would work. He would definitely loose TV time the after the first warning (that's two shops) and there would still be 4 more shops to pass where he would have the impulse to ask.

That looking ahead approach does work with DS1 - he is going to a teenage rock festival today and we have agreed clear expectations of when he has to text me, who he is coming home with and at what time (and no smoking or drugs) and he knows that if he doesn't meet those expectations he won't be able to go to another gig later in the summer.

DS2 if you ask him to go upstairs and do 3 things will do 1 and forget the rest. I don't think the 'make sure there is no alternative answer and they will soon learn' approach works with ADHD kids.

In that case your mother needs to understand that your DS2's behaviour is part of his disability and there's no point in harping on about it. If he can't help but keep asking then you just need to keep saying no and hope over time he starts learning how to control his impulse.

Yes you are right. We are still learning about this thing. The more I learn the more I think I probably have aspects of it, and my mum too - although DS is more pronounced.

I guess it is why she did particularly badly under the the strict-expectations-and-escalating-punishments regime when she was growing up.

In that case your mother needs to understand that your DS2's behaviour is part of his disability and there's no point in harping on about it.

That's very true actually. Its really rather ridiculous to be outraged at the behaviour of a child with sen who can't help that behaviour.

Are you getting the help you need to learn better and more effective ways of dealing with your son?

One thing you could try with your younger DS is social stories. It's just a short cartoon story drawn using stick men that shows a certain social situation and how you should behave in that situation. The idea is that you read the story as often as possible together, with no explicit teaching, just read it and perhaps talk about if he wants to and then leave it at that. Over time the idea is that the concepts in the story start to sink in slowly. It can be very effective with children with autism in particular but I can see it working for your son too.

A story to do with town might show you and your DS walking through town with the caption "My mum and I love walking around town together." The second picture would show you passing a shop and DS with a speech bubble asking for something and you with a speech bubble saying no and the caption "I often see things I like in the shops and I ask for them, but often my mummy says no." And so on, showing what often happens, describing how you feel and how he feels and perhaps at the end saying "When I go into town I will try not to ask mummy for things too often." That's sort of a rough example but you could have something more detailed to reflect what happens between you. The aim is to get him to understand that asking constantly isn't acceptable and to hopefully over time encourage him to rein in his impulse.

Another option would be to have a laminated sheet with velcro and then little tokens that stick to the velcro. DS starts out with say 6 tokens and you say "Ok if you get to the end of the trip with one token left you will get a treat. Every time you ask for something in a shop you lose one token." At the start success should be guaranteed - ie 6 tokens but only 5 shops so he's definitely going to get a treat. Over time you then make it a bit harder. It's then a game but it's also teaching him impulse control.